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thurman.pitts.emory.edu
394-358_A.mp3
Conversations with Howard Thurman, Friday, September the 19th, 1980.
And when I finish that, then I would like for us to get some introduction to each other,
[INAUDIBLE] wherever you want to say that can be repeated.
[LAUGHTER]
I'm sorry.
Is this part off the record?
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Now, before we move in to the more [INAUDIBLE] part of our time, which begins when we talk
about our own search and who we are and anything that will give us a sense of you and your own
journey, I want to read something.
Oh, nothing is off the record, [INAUDIBLE]. But [INAUDIBLE] we are going to get acquainted
with each other inevitably at a what I hope to be an increasingly deeper level. So you don't need
to bother about that. But what we-- we want some handles, anything. Tell me your name to
anything else you want to say that would give you a feeling of being at home in our journey and
also just a glimpse of something else that is so important.
And that is that if for a minute maybe or a second, maybe for a lifetime-- I don't know-- but you
submit your passkey into somebody's hands so they can open the door and walk around and take
a look at that part of you that if it is seen, will give you a sense that your isolation is temporarily
broken.
Because I think that everybody feels in some way that he or she is-- well, I don't know how to
say it-- he is she is in a room in which there are no doors. And I think there's nothing quite as
confirming as the feeling that somebody knows you in that room. Someone knows you in that
room. But you can't shout loud enough for them to hear you. That's pretty grim, though, I think.
[LAUGHTER]
I don't mean to be grimmy like that, but sometimes I think that the whole journey of man's life is
to break out a sense of isolation, not solitariness, but isolation. And I think the spiritual root of
that is the great built-in desire to be understood.
In one of [INAUDIBLE] childhood experiences with her missionary parents in South Africa, a
favorite friend of hers who was the clergyman of the Anglican church-- [INAUDIBLE] her
father was a missionary for the London Missionary Society. And there was no great love
between these two offshoots to the Protestant religious experience.
And [INAUDIBLE] liked this man. But she was not permitted to give any evidence of this
because she was in the way. So she hid his hat. Because she knew that he wouldn't dare go out to
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the South African sun without his hat. And they couldn't find it anywhere. And her mother called
her. Said, did you do anything with the father's hat or whatever she called him.
Oh, she said, yes. I hid it. I want him to stay with us forever. So I'm going to lose-- 10 years old,
now-- I'm going to lose my personal identity, so I can't remember what I did with it.
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[LAUGHTER]
You know, how insecure a parent must feel when a 10-year-old child says that to you. But I'm
concerned in our journey that one of the overtones that will come from this will be that now and
then when we want to open the door of our sense of isolation, we can feel that we are seen and
not stared at.
So when I finish reading this, we'll have a little moment. And then I'd like for each one of us to
say anything that gives us a scent on your trail.
In every life there are a few special moments that count for more than all the rest. And because
they meant the taking of a stand, a self-commitment, a decisive choice. It is commitment that
creates the person. It is the pressing need to find meaning for one's life, to subordinate the whole
of one's life to that mean.
It is this need, this inner inspiration which is from God. All the ideologies, all the doctrines, all
the formulas drawn up by men will pass. Every ideal, too, grows old in its turn. Only the true and
living god remains.
Thus, the knowing encounter with the living God is the greatest possible human event. The
circumstances and forms of this encounter may be infinitely variating. It always comes as such a
surprise that the conviction is inescapable, that it is the doing of God, the result of God's direct
initiative.
And then therefore, inherent in life is meaning, M-E-A-N-I-N-G. Inherent in life is meaning.
This is a quality independent of the way in which outside forces may operate upon it. The life in
the seed bursts forth in root and stalk and fruit. The whole process takes place within.
Now, many forces may operate upon it from without, cramping the roots, making the shape of
the stalk into a caricature of itself. But always, with whatever life there is, the built-in purpose is
never giving up. Concerning this meaning, there is no doubt wherever life appears.
This is the integrity of life. It is a commitment of life. This is the singular characteristic of all
aliveness. This is the miracle, the shaping of matter from within, the materializing of vitality.
The total experience seems to take place in a manner so pervasive that we look in vain for the
center, for the location, of the secret.
Can life's experience of itself at the level of tree and plant, cat and dog, even in the body of a
man, be also life's experience of itself at the level of the mind? Is there a meaning inherent in the
life of the mind itself? That is the unfolding of an inner logic not to be accounted for in terms of
stimulus from the outside or response to the outside.
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May it be that all the dreams, the hopes, the creative flashes like summer lightning, which do not
ever quite desert the human mind, that all these are inherent in the mind itself? Has meaning
characteristic of the life in the mind? Wherever life appears, it carries with it meaning, which is
characteristic of all vitality.
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Life means inherent order, built-in goals, patterns, designs. When the form of life becomes more
complex, the fact, too, is reflected in the pattern, the design, and the purpose.
Now, it may be that in the mind of man and the rich diversity and depth of human thought, in the
searching restlessness of which the word "spirit" seems more appropriate, the life inherent is
moving always towards goals and ends that are sensed only when realized.
And beyond all these, there may be a life of mankind which is more than individuals, more than
groups, but in which there is a built-in purpose, aim, and goal. Perhaps this is why we seem
always to be presented with goals that can never be realized, that ends which can never be
fulfilled. Thus, the ultimate word which is reserved for god is creator. A creative act must always
be the person, the private act.
Now I would like for us to get acquainted with each other at a level that is surface, words. And
say anything you want to say that will give us peep holes into-- and we'll start-- [INAUDIBLE]
would you like to say yours so you can go?
I'm Sue Thurman. That's just [INAUDIBLE].
Well, I didn't mean-- all right. So you're at liberty to leave.
I'm going to sit over here so I can look at faces.
All right, dear. That's fine. But be our guest, sort of taking your leave whenever you-- Mary
Ellen will we start with you? And swing around.
I'm going to check the mic on the way to you.
I'm Mary Ellen and-Can you hear? You say it loud enough--
Let me ask a question before you start. Thanks, Mary Ellen. Are you all cool enough now that
we could shut this door? I'm getting so much traffic noise.
I would rather have it open, myself.
Seems noisy.
Crack it down a little bit, and then we'll be able-OK.
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All right. OK.
You know my name is Mary Ellen. What maybe you don't know is that I'm sorry that I was late.
[LAUGHTER]
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[INAUDIBLE] OK. I'm very happy to be here. It's a privilege to be here. I guess you're hoping I
say some things as a way of identification, so that kind of thing.
Yeah. Just-- not the whole story of your life, but enough to give us a handle. Anything you want
to say. Two minutes, three minutes, four minutes, six minutes.
[LAUGHTER]
I guess what I-- why I'm hesitating is because I don't-- we identify ourselves in different ways
sometimes depending on the person that we're talking with, I mean in the situation that you're in,
whether you're meeting a new friend or looking for a job or whatever. And I guess we're kind of
a different coming together, I feel.
So quickly then, I've been a teacher. I've done agency work. I like working with people. I like
working with children, especially. I have been married. I am divorced. I have three grown sons.
I'm now just beginning a leave of absence without pay from my teaching job.
I'm moving toward a simple life, I think, maybe out of necessity. And I will have this
[INAUDIBLE] maybe the year studying at Yale Divinity School. I have an interest in religion
and religions. And I have a part-time job at a day care center, which keeps me in touch with little
folks. So that's quite a bit about myself, I think, for a start.
Where were you born?
I was born in Des Moines.
[INAUDIBLE]
But I grew up in Detroit.
I'm [INAUDIBLE]. I'm 152 years old.
Let us guess.
My husband of 30 years is a chemical engineer. And we have four children, a son, 25, and girls
ages 23, 20, and 17. We're praying for strength to get her to 18. We live 15 miles from here, both
of us having come from New York state. My interests are religion, in the sense of how the
peoples of the world go about searching for god, psychology, holistic health, particularly the
connection between man's mental and physical health and his religious beliefs, reading and
writing.
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I was trying to think of some kind of tribute to make to Dr. Thurman.
[INAUDIBLE]
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Oh, I have something good. I found him 16 years ago in a book. And it would be very difficult to
explain what a good teacher and friend he has been all these years. And to me, he answers the
question which I had always had. Does God create man in his own image? And I was never sure.
And I met Howard Thurman. And I know he does. [INAUDIBLE]
Thank you. Coming here tonight is my 59th birthday present. And when I was 34 and a very
troubled young woman thinking, is this really all there is to life. I had a beautiful home, a
husband, and two children. But there was some little voice within me saying, is this all? Is this
all? I this all there is to it?
I had a first real breakthrough religious experience-- I had never belonged to a church-- in a CFO
camp. I won't go into that. But someone I met there-- well, I have to say first, my husband was
very disturbed by this experience that I've had. He was not there. He was not present.
And trying to figure out what was happening to me, he said, where are you now? Where are you
now? And I listened within myself, and the words that came was, I think I'm growing in love.
But I don't really know what that means. And the following Sunday, a young woman came to my
door. We'd been at the same CFO camp. And she said, put on your hat. We were at the breakfast
table. I'm taking you someplace.
No nos. I'm just taking you someplace, and you're to come. I know this is for you. And she took
me to Fellowship Church. And when I picked up the program for the day, the sermon with Dr.
Thurman was Growing in Love.
And when you were through speaking, I didn't think I was going to be able to leave the seat. I
felt like a piece of limp spaghetti. And I can't tell you what he said. I only know that he threw
open those doors you were saying were closed in time. And I knew that someone else knew and
that I was on the right journey. And that has been my journey and continues to be my journey.
[INAUDIBLE]
Presently, I was married for 30 years and divorced. And I'm in an entirely new life. I'm now
married to Del Anderson, who is the president of the overseas branch of CFO. Well, we have 64
camps around the world. And from the little housewife, mother, the acorn, the oak tree is
beginning to sprout. And I find that my world has become very large and that love needed to
grow to start encompassing that larger life. And so the larger world is growing me and I am
finding that oneness many, many places.
[INAUDIBLE]
I'm Kenny Wood. And I'm a second-year theology student at San Francisco Seminary in San
Anselmo. I was born in San Antonio, Texas and hadn't left Texas until this year, which was a
real hard move for my family, who is my wife, Sharon, and Tiffany, our little girl who's three.
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I didn't know exactly why we were coming out here, except that there was a man at the seminary
who was a hero of mine named Browne Barr. I wanted to be a preacher. And a friendship began
between Dr. Barr and myself. And so we came. We packed up and came.
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I've worked with teenagers, junior high and high school, young people, in a Baptist Church in
Dallas for 10 years. And in our tradition, at least where I'd grown up, the emphasis has always
been on doing enough. And I didn't really have a sense that there was any more than that, that I
knew of.
And I see now from the experiences I've had since we've been here, that this is one of the reasons
that I'm here and that my family and I are here, to make a search inside that has surprised me.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I've always been [INAUDIBLE] but I haven't always been aware of it. But a good portion
of my life, I have been. And I experienced-- I mean, I've had some experience with reality, with
God. I haven't always been able to share my inner self as my wife, Lucille, can and does.
Incidentally, coming over, she was psyched up because she was looking forward to this so much.
And I said, gee, I won't even have to take to buy a cocktail after.
[LAUGHTER]
But this-- I just hit the jackpot. And then I found a birthday present that was so meaningful to
her. And I'm very grateful for that.
Yes. Thank you.
Because she's deserving of it.
Yes.
Whatever the best is that I can give to her.
I was born here in California right nearby. And that makes me unique, because [INAUDIBLE].
That's right. That's right.
[INAUDIBLE] As a boy, I was very poor, struggled, worked hard. And then through the grace of
God-- and it really was the grace of God. It couldn't have been otherwise. I was able to-- I was in
business. Had a dry-cleaning business. nothing very romantic about cleaning dirty clothing.
But when I was 43, I did retire from the economic [INAUDIBLE]. And have been able to do
many things that would have been impossible otherwise. And I've had-- God's blessed me with
tremendous [INAUDIBLE] high consciousness. And part of retirement going along, joyous and
skipping, and jumping and sometimes kind of kicking and screaming. But I've come along. And I
guess God's seen to that.
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[INAUDIBLE]
I'm Ruth [INAUDIBLE] from Carmel, so I'm not very far away. I've been there 16 years. My
roots are on a farm in Kansas. But I came out to California and transplanted 56 years ago. Most
of my work life has been a secretary, a very odd secretary at times.
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I have spent my 75th year looking at everything that I was doing. This was a suggestion of a
friend. And it became quite an interesting experience to look at everything I was doing to figure
whether it was something I really wanted to do, or whether I was doing it just because I got into
it or because somebody else wanted me to do it and I was doing that kind of thing.
That included several activities in the Quaker Church, Methodist Church-- in fact, I grew up
thinking the Methodist Church was really the only church there was-- Doing some things down
there like taping sermons, and I'm on the finance committee and education committee, doing
things like having a mimeograph in my home and doing SPCA benefit schedule, mimeographing
a [INAUDIBLE] for my family. There are still six children living. And I'm the next to the
youngest.
Working in the League of Women Voters, doing some secretarial work for them, getting
involved in a health services study, which really helped us to persuade the National League that
they will be doing a health services study in a couple of years.
I'm now just past my 76th and filling in those things which I have sloughed off and have the free
time now. So what was my office is now wallpapered with paper where I can stick a thumbtack
in and isn't going to make any difference, get all my books in one room instead of six rooms.
And also to figure out what it was that made me in 1933 when I was at a Junior Business Girls
conference in [INAUDIBLE] became very interested in one of the adult faculty or adult leaders.
And since then our paths have kind of crossed pretty often. So I think one thing that's happened
is that all of those things led to right here and right now.
Yeah.
Lois [INAUDIBLE]. I was born in South Dakota on a farm. I love the wide open fields. I seem to
have a sense of god and the spirit within me. I've been on that journey ever since. It's led me into
openings of myself.
I'm married, have a husband, daughter, and son, five grandchildren. I am a secretary to the pastor
[INAUDIBLE] Paradise Methodist Church. I have found that as I am open to the spirit, things
come. So I've been able to write, thanks to God. I love to read.
I think the most joy I've had is being an enabler for people who have wanted to learn from
Howard. And we have a roundtable in our home twice a month, in which we gather around a
table to share, to celebrate life. We give them hot soup, crusty bread and fruit, listen to one of Dr.
Thurmond's tapes, and then discuss it. People find they are moved, the spirit moves within them,
and things were happening because of you. And things have certainly happened with me because
of you.
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I'm Roger Eaton. I work in LA. I've come up to this symposium-- I'm not sure what to say.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Don't think. [INAUDIBLE] Don't think, just say it.
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Well, what I was thinking, actually, was that you talk about being people-- people were locked
in. Well, I don't feel locked in. I feel like I'm-- this is just something that struck me. And if you
press me on it, I won't be able to back it up.
Of course not.
I feel like I'm in a drafty hall. I don't feel looked in at all. On the other hand, it doesn't all quite fit
together. So honestly, I worked for Princess Cruises. That's the Love Boat. I work as a computer
operator there. And I guess I'm here because I think Dr. Thurman understands a lot of things. I'm
really interested to try and make sense of what's going on. And I'm hoping maybe I'll learn to.
That's it.
I'm trying to think of what to say, and everything all flows together. I'm Sarah [INAUDIBLE].
I'm from Minneapolis. I've lived in Minnesota all my life. I was born, like some of the rest of us,
on a farm. And I'm the oldest of three daughters.
I've lived in the Cities in Minneapolis for about 30 years. I'm a teacher. A week ago, my teaching
life turned upside down as I listened to the tape that you asked us to listen to, so much of it fit in
to so many things that are going on for me today and through this week that it has just been so
different that it is special to be here because of what we're talking about and sharing, also to get
away from all of the-- not chaos, because what happened involved my taking a stand and
following it through.
I first met Dr. Thurman in 1966. And I heard him at a church that he was speaking in in
Minneapolis. And after the service, you go up and shake the person's hand and be
[INAUDIBLE]. And when he does it, a sense of presence is there to give you the feel or at least
to give me the feel that he's someone you've known all your life. It's a very special gift. I don't
think I've ever met anybody that has-- where I've felt that since, besides Dr. Thurman.
The things that I do in living my life and trying to blend the faith that I have with the things that I
do so that-- well, and as in what he read tonight, [INAUDIBLE]. What is the name of the tape,
the book?
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
The Creative Encounter. And all of life, everything that we do, becomes part of the reflection of
what we believe. And I teach in the inner city, I guess you call it, some fantastic kids. And my
life has been very enriched by the experiences that I've been able to share with them and that
they have shared with me. I've learned a lot about things that I didn't know that even existed to
learn about, because of the experiences that I've had with children who I was never in contact
with as a child and in my growing years. And that's been very special. It's special to be here.
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[INAUDIBLE] do you have anything to say before we-[INAUDIBLE]
Oh, no. I moved out of that because I can--
That's a good phrase.
[LAUGHTER]
Gee, whiz. Yeah, that's good.
[INAUDIBLE] Is there an interesting person [INAUDIBLE].
[INAUDIBLE]
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I think he wants me to say how very pleased we are to have you here. [INAUDIBLE] Join the
procession of those [INAUDIBLE].
I am. I am writing [INAUDIBLE]. And I work with the tapes. [INAUDIBLE] These beautiful
quarters were made available to us in 1974, in July of 1974. A couple of years before that, I had
recently moved to San Francisco and had made contact with Dr. Thurmond again. I had met him
years before when I was on the East Cost.
He asked me one day if I would be interested in looking at some tapes, some old tapes that he
had, to see if they were worth anything. And we went out in the garage together. And there were
some boxes [INAUDIBLE] and neatly packed, just like they had been shipped from one part of
the country to the other.
And then there were other boxes where half the tapes were strung out, and this and that. We
decided that the thing for us to do was to begin the newest tapes and kind of work backwards.
And then at any place, we just stopped, we'd have the best-- what would look like the best
material.
Well, I'm still here. And this was in '72. And there wasn't a scrap of that. I don't believe there was
a scrap of tape that I was going to [INAUDIBLE] throw away. So it's been a very rich experience
for me. And I am very, very pleased to be here to share with you what will be our experience
together this weekend.
She is from New Mexico. [INAUDIBLE]
New Mexico. Cattle rancher's daughter. I grew up in a cattle ranch [INAUDIBLE].
I think it's important to say about Joyce that without the work that she's been doing, we simply
would have no records of this. Because I don't write stuff to talk. I don't write sermons. I don't
write anything. So that the only records I have of what has come through me became available
only after the plastic tape recorder was invented.
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For instance, for 15 years, I worked at Howard University as dean of the chapel. And there isn't a
scrap of anything that was said during those 15 years that's available anywhere, because they
didn't have tape recorders. And so that one part of my life in this dimension began when
somebody down the peninsula came up with this Ampex-- I think it's Ampex--
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Time Period
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1980s
Original Title
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Conversations with Howard Thurman (parts 1 and 2) (80-9/19-20-21), 1980 Sep 19-21
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Thurman, Howard
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Conversations with Howard Thurman, September 1980, Parts 1 and 2, Side A
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<a href="http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/rp8k9">MSS 394</a>
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<a href="http://pitts.emory.edu/">Pitts Theology Library, Emory University</a>
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1980-09-19
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Description
An account of the resource
This recording is a part of a wider series of conversations from September to October of 1980 where Howard Thurman met with a variety of young men and women who were discerning their calling to ministry. Thurman poses the intent of this group as an opportunity to "open up for one's self the moving, vital, creative push of God, while God is still disguised in the movement of God's self." Thurman's introductory remarks in this recording mention the tension that rests between isolation and solitude, noting that the "spiritual root" of breaking out of isolation is the "great built-in desire of being understood." These preliminary remarks set the foundation for the group of students who were sharing who they were, where they were from, and what their story was, to Howard and Sue Bailey Thurman.
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Description by Dustin Mailman
aliveness
Anglican Church
being seen
Browne Barr
calling
choice
commitment
community
creative encounter
creativity
ecology
experience
Fellowship Church
Howard University
identity
imago dei
inner self
integrity of life
Isolation
Kansas
knowing
League of Women Voters
love
Love Boat
Minneapolis
New Mexico
Oak Tree
Olive Schreiner
oneness
order
passkey
religious experience
room with no doors
San Francisco Seminary
scent on one's trail
self-actualization
South Africa
South Dakota
Sue Bailey Thurman
teaching
vitality
Yale Divinity School