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Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
394-190_B.mp3
Do you want to read about it? It's Mark I, [? IV ?] and Luke-Luke 4:1-13.
Yep. Read the text. Start with the text.
What I'm thinking is-You were asking what I was asking. Was it the devil per se?
Was that just a way of explaining what happened?
Or was it Jesus himself?
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
You mentioned that he was wrestling with himself. You mean that he just conceived an idea, and
this idea of caused conflict within him. How did-- in other words, how did the devil go about
temple?
I'll tell you why-- I'll tell you why I don't attempt to answer it. Because it's a thing that happened
in context of other things that's mentioned in the scripture. And unless you have some reference
to the context, it wouldn't be fair to answer your question.
This is Luke, the fourth chapter. And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and
was led by the spirit for 40 days in the wilderness, tempted by the devil. And-You're just about there.
You know, I suppose, in discussions, one could raise all kinds of questions as to what the
concepts mean. But if we use the text as a point of departure, we have the responsibility to honor
the text.
And the text says that he was tempted by the devil. Now, you may want to-- we know you can
speculate ad infinitum. But you have to start-- that's your point of departure. And if you're
arguing about the validity of the text, then where do you go?
No, no. If you're saying-- you are arguing about the validity of the text if-No, no.
The question is, what is the nature of the devil? How did the devil manifest itself?
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Yeah, what was his manifestation?
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Well, still, it's going to be a conflict in interpretation of it.
That's-- you still--
Are you arguing that-Read the [INAUDIBLE].
Pitts Theology Library
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[INTERPOSING VOICES]
I thought he was just asking about what the temptation was. That's what I heard. What did you
ask, Ricky?
I'm asking, how did he approach Jesus? Was it in Jesus' own mind or was it an outsider? That's
what I'm asking.
Well, I know he was tempted. OK, that's no question about that. I'm just wondering about the
procedure [INAUDIBLE].
Is that really-- does that really matter?
No, I just, you know, thought someone would know about it.
Let's read the [INAUDIBLE] 12.
This is 1:12 [INAUDIBLE].
New Testament.
And this is the revised standard version.
The spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness, and he was in the wilderness 40 days,
tempted by Satan. And he was with the wild beast, and the angels ministered to him.
That's from-- the lecture is from Luke and [INAUDIBLE].
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Where is the Luke [INAUDIBLE]?
[INAUDIBLE]
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Let me finish this. I'll begin again. And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan
and was led by the spirit for 40 days [INAUDIBLE], tempted by the Devil. And he ate nothing in
those days, and when they were needed-- when they were ended, he was hungry.
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The Devil said to him, if you are the Son of God, command the stones become bread. And Jesus
answered him, it is written, man shall not live by bread alone. And the Devil took him up and
showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time and said to him, to you I will
give all this authority and the glory. For it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will.
Pitts Theology Library
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If you then will worship me, it shall be yours. And Jesus answered him, it is written, you shall
worship the Lord, your God, and him only shall you serve.
And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, if you
are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here. For it is written, he will give His angels
charge of you to guard you. And on their hands, they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot
against a stone.
And Jesus answered him. It is said, you shall not tempt the Lord, your God. And when the Devil
had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
Well, it seems to me in reading this that despite what may have been happening to Jesus
internally, the Devil was certainly something external [INAUDIBLE].
What made that clear? Perhaps because of the substance of the temptation. I mean, the fact that
it's something that he is responding to as well as [INAUDIBLE]?
If we can perhaps take a leap in imagination and see ourselves as something other than those
[INAUDIBLE].
I don't really see where this is important or really relevant.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Well-Relevant to what? [INAUDIBLE]
What are you planning to get to after that has settled, if it's ever settled? I mean, what will it
mean to say that Jesus was a separate entity or something within his mind?
Because it says to me that if he [INAUDIBLE] talked about, you know, you're watching yourself
at all times. [INAUDIBLE] not pulling away and then [INAUDIBLE], is that what you mean?
Yeah, that kind of thing. Well, if this was taking place [INAUDIBLE], then I'm wondering what
was-Let me finish the question.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
You're wondering what is the--
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No, I was wondering then if, was this a point, that Jesus stopped being Jesus? That Jesus stopped
identifying with the identity of Jesus? Why here?
That's a good question.
Pitts Theology Library
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If this was an internal thing-- that's what I'm saying. If he was wrestling with himself, if this was
an inward struggle, would this [INAUDIBLE] a problem of the identity of Jesus to Jesus? If it
was external, [INAUDIBLE].
It also may mean [INAUDIBLE] left to Jesus. Because you're forcing something into the text.
No, now.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Yeah. Flesh it out.
[LAUGHTER]
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
One of the things I think we have to be careful in looking at the text-- and you can do certain
kinds of things with [INAUDIBLE] things, but you have to be very careful in looking at the text
to look at some current things that you are struggling with and make the text normative for that.
What you can say-- you know, you can say, it seems to me that that might have been the case.
But in ancient literature, particularly with great spiritual leaders, one finds the temptation
constantly occurring.
It occurred with Gautama Buddha before he set out on-The temptation.
The temptation occurred with Gautama Buddha. The Buddha, yes. And it seems to me that, you
know, to start reading some things into that from your cultural situation is a forced exegesis, if
you will. It almost gets to the point of eisegesis.
You start with what that text means, or as much as you can get to what the text means, and then
find some universal fair. But to start with a cultural situation and try to find it in the text is-I agree with what you're saying. But this isn't what's taking place here.
OK. Well, I will--
Dr. Thurman states this whole syndrome, if you want to call it, as a universal. So therefore, it
would have applicability if-- but there's no way you can prove it.
That's what I'm saying, see? Now--
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So it could or could not be an instance where that--
I did not mean to accuse you.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
Right. I'm not saying that-- to exegesis, text, I'm not even saying to go back and to read into. I
think that I would have maybe problems with the devil in people. The Devil was in Legion. But
it was because what? We discussed. Legion didn't know himself. He didn't know who he was.
[INAUDIBLE].
Yeah. Well, now, if that is the case, I'm wondering if-- I'm wondering, that's all. If this was the
case here as it was there. That's what I was wondering.
And I say it's a good question.
It's a good question because I don't think it can be answered.
Well, it can be answered.
Not perhaps empirically. But I mean, you know, can you prove that God exists empirically?
No, it's not [INAUDIBLE].
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
It can't be answered. I mean, what we're talking about is--
You were asking about what were the dynamics of the situation for which our only sources, what
is there. And we cannot tell from what is there whether the Devil was a separate entity or-[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Whether that devil happened to be the divinity in Jesus with some detachment, we can't tell that.
No. The way you stretch at the question in the formal way to put the question. You know, what
do we know from what is there? What is in the record? That, to me, seems to be a formal way of
putting the question. And you start with that.
OK. So who said we-- you said you could answer the question.
No, I didn't say I could answer that. I said I think the question can be answered, in terms of what
Dr. Thurman was talking about this morning.
It can be answered in terms of the possibility of that situation being so. I mean, that can only go
so far. But you cannot say definitely what [INAUDIBLE].
OK. Well--
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[INAUDIBLE] suggesting.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
From what I understand Dr. Thurman was doing this morning was a kind of psychoanalysis-- a
psychological analysis of the Jesus situation in this [INAUDIBLE]. Now in order to do that, it
seems to me that what Dr. Thurman is suggesting is that the Jesus in this story is a theological
construct. And by looking at the construct in terms of what is given in the record, we can make
some projections on it or some suggestions about it.
Now, what you project, and what you get out of your projection, may be something different,
you know? But if the data is right-- you know, you ask the right questions, you'll get the right
answers.
Well, I think it really says something as far as-- he touched this morning on the claims of
mystical experience. And you know, we come from traditions that claim, at various points in
their history, that Jesus was at once God and man, even before ascension or crucifixion.
[INAUDIBLE]
I think so. Well, perhaps-- well, you know. I'll even say no, we don't. I'll just say, let's suppose
that we assert that. [INAUDIBLE] is a period [INAUDIBLE] in most situations. But now I don't
know if this is-- how [INAUDIBLE] a problem for you. But I think that if-- I mean, Jesus was a
man. And at some point, the nature of understanding what it is to be human, you have to
recognize that we don't-- do we ever really know who we are?
Excuse me.
[INAUDIBLE] everybody. When you said you, you didn't mean me, did you?
No.
OK.
Because you look dead.
[LAUGHTER]
That was probably a universal [INAUDIBLE].
Yeah, I think it was.
And it was a very personal one for me. There you are. Well, just let me finish that. I mean, he
must have been like Legion at some point, not knowing who he was. Because he was still a
human being. Even if he was God at the same time, he still has to deal with being a human.
Part of growth.
Right. This is the beginning of his ministry.
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It's that you don't want to-- you can't see that as conceivable?
Who, me?
Yeah.
Well, ask him.
[LAUGHTER]
We have a question on the floor.
How do I see the floor?
Figuring out [INAUDIBLE].
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
No, I was just wondering. I was wondering. And I had planned to ask Dr. Thurman, but I just--
I was wondering, in the Gospel, I had heard the end of the tape talking about tempters. Jesus and
the-- I was wondering, was the Devil a separate entity apart from Jesus, or-Or I don't know.
[LAUGHTER]
I'm not sure you posed that.
Bring in the stuff about Legion and all the other junk that you were saying.
No, about-That was the original question. That was the original question.
That was my question. That was the original question.
He dressed it up later on.
Yeah, you got-- everybody jumped on it, and then he changed it around a little bit.
One of the most dramatic paintings of the temptations is that a congregational church in Chicago,
just over one of the altars or something-- perhaps it was 15 years ago-- but being Chicago, it
cannot cannot be there now. And Jesus is seated overlooking this whole business in a typical
version of this scene.
But if you sit on the front pew and observe the future very carefully, get adjusted to the light and
everything, you notice that in the painting of a background surrounding Jesus that after awhile
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you notice that, in this sort of dark coloured background, there are dozens of fingers cloying at
his mind. This was the artist's idea of what the temptation was like.
Pitts Theology Library
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Now I don't know the answer to that question-- the question you raised. The only thing I know is
how the tempter works with me. And that is sometimes [INAUDIBLE] my imagination,
sometimes there's somebody who poses something. I mean, I'm the clue to the tempter, to my
tempter.
Now I don't know whether Jesus was the clue to his or not. I just don't know. But let's let it rest
there for a while, because everybody-Wasted enough time already.
[LAUGHTER]
One of the disadvantages is that [INAUDIBLE].
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
One of the disadvantages of studying religion is that it's sure hard to get to the point and to stay
with the point, because everybody is an authority. And that's the way it should be.
[INAUDIBLE].
So that is dismissing it. But if I know you, you find a way to bring it back here and start.
We're finished.
Oh, you're finished. Now I have something I want to do, and then we go to the-- did we decide
[INAUDIBLE]?
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Internal Notes
Notes for project team
This tape is an edited version of the conversations. The recording is duplicated in <a href="https://thurman.pitts.emory.edu/admin/items/show/491">https://thurman.pitts.emory.edu/admin/items/show/491</a> at timestamp 33:00 and concluded in <a href="https://thurman.pitts.emory.edu/admin/items/show/492">https://thurman.pitts.emory.edu/admin/items/show/492</a> at timestamp 07:48.
Time Period
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1980s
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394-190_B
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Thurman, Howard
Title
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Conversations with Howard Thurman, Part 2, 1980
Date
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1980
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<a href="http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/rp8k9">MSS 394</a>
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audio
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<a href="http://pitts.emory.edu/">Pitts Theology Library, Emory University</a>
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<a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/"><img style="border-width:0;" src="https://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-nc/4.0/80x15.png" alt="80x15.png" /></a><br />This work is licensed under a <a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License</a>. 2019.
Description
An account of the resource
This recording is a part of a wider series of conversations from September to October of 1980 where Howard Thurman met with a variety of young men and women who were discerning their calling to ministry. Thurman poses the intent of this group as an opportunity to "open up for one's self the moving, vital, creative push of God, while God is still disguised in the movement of God's self." The majority of this recording is a group of young people working through the nature of temptation, and Jesus' understanding of his sense of self as it pertains to Luke 4:1-13. Towards the end of the recording, the group brings their ponderings on the scripture, to which Thurman responds with ambiguity, "The only thing I know is how the tempter works with me. And that is sometimes just in my imagination, sometimes there's somebody who poses something."
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Description by Dustin Mailman
attachment
Buddha
Chicago
conflict
construct
devil
eisegesis
exegesis
hermeneutic
identity
imagination
interpretation
Jesus
legion
Luke 4:1-13
mystical experience
New Testament
painting
point of departure
psychoanalysis
Revised Standard Version
temptation
temptation of Jesus
universal