1
10
4
-
http://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pittsthurman/original/93eeb29d16140b079f1aad6c74d84dc0.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI4CD764Y635IGLNA&Expires=1711727400&Signature=gKTnhgRPZaZy4KsouG7BjAkFNDk%3D
20a8a8df8aea43a629ee7955590e672f
PDF Text
Text
Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
394-095_B.mp3
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
I'd like to begin today by reading something that summarizes and in the form of an allegory the
essence of what we've been talking about touching upon the ground of unity that sustains and
supports all external manifestations of life. Sometimes, I think it is given to the poet and to a
certain kind of literary dreamer to give expression to insights that defy the more rational analysis,
either the philosopher or the theologian. And this is written by a South African woman of
English background, and her name is Olive Schreiner. Her period is 1855 to 1921.
A man cried up to God, and God sent down an angel to help him. And the angel came back and
said to God, I cannot help that man, and God said, how is it with him? And the angel said, he
cries out continually that someone has injured him, and he would forgive him, and he cannot do
it. God said, what have you done for him?
The angel said, I've done everything. I took him by the hand, and I said, look, when other men
speak ill of that man, do you speak well of him? Secretly in ways he shall not know, serve him.
If you have anything you value, share it with him. So serving him, you'd at last come to feel
possession in him, and you will forgive him, and the man said, I'll do it.
Afterwards, as I passed by in the dark of night, I heard one crying out, I have done all. It helps
nothing. My speaking well of him helps me not at all. If I share my heart's blood with him, is the
burning within me less? I cannot forgive. I cannot forgive. Oh, God, I cannot forgive.
I said to him, look back on all your past. See from your childhood all smallness, all indirectness
that has been yours. Look well at it, and in it's light, do you not see every man your brother? He
looked, and he said, yes, you're right. I too have failed. I forgive my fellow.
Go, I am satisfied. I have forgiven, and he laid him down peacefully and folded his hands on his
breast, and I thought it was well with him. But scarcely had my wings rustled, and I turned to
come up here, when I heard one crying out on Earth again. I cannot forgive. I cannot forgive. Oh
God, God, I cannot forgive.
It is better to die than to hate. I cannot forgive. I can not do it. And I went and stood outside his
door in the dark, and I heard him cry, I have not sinned so, not so. If I've torn my fellow's flesh
ever so little, and I've kneeled down and kissed the wound with my mouth till it was healed. I
have not willed that any soul should be lost through hate of me.
If they have but fancied that I wrong them, I have lain down on the ground before them. That
they might tread on me and so seeing my humiliation forgive and not be lost to hating me. They
have not cared that my soul should be lost. They have not willed to save me. They have not tried
that I should forgive them.
I said to him, be thou content then. Do not forgive. Forget this soul and its injury. Go on your
way. In the next world, perhaps, he cried, go from me.
You understand nothing. What is the next world to me? I am lost now, today. I cannot see the
sunlight shine. The dust is in my throat. The sand is in my eyes. Go from me. You know nothing.
1
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
Oh, once again, before I die to see that the world is beautiful. Oh, God, God, I cannot live and
not love. I cannot live and hate. Oh, God, God, God. So I left him crying, and I came back up
here.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
And God said, this man's soul must be saved, and the angel said, how? And God said, you go
down and save it, and the angel said, what more shall I do? Then, God bent down and whispered
in the angel's ear, and the angel spread out its wings and went down to earth. The angel went
down and found the man with a bitter heart and took him by the hand and led him to a certain
spot-- and now follow this. Now, the man wist not where it was the angel would take him, nor
what he would show him there.
And when they came, the angel shaded the man's eyes with his wing, and when he moved it, the
man saw somewhat on the earth before them. For God had given it to that angel to unclothe a
human soul, to take from it all those outward attributes of form and color and age and sex.
Whereby one man is known from among his fellows and is marked off from the rest, and the soul
laid bare before them, bare as a man turning his eye inwards beholds himself.
They saw its past, its childhood, the tiny life with the dew upon it. They saw its youth when the
dew with melting, and the creature raised its mouth to drink from a cup too large for it, and they
saw how the water spilt. They saw its hopes that were never realized. They saw its hours of
intellectual blindness men call sin. They saw its hours of all-radiating insight, which men call
righteousness.
They saw its hour of strength, when it leaped to its feet crying, I am omnipotent. Its hour of
weakness, when it fell to the earth and grasped dust only. They saw what it might have been but
never would be. And the man bent forward, and the angel said, what is it? And he answered, it is
I. It is myself, and he went forward as if he would have lain as heart against it, but the angel held
him back and covered his eyes.
Now, God had given power to the angel further to unclothe that soul, to take from it all those
outward attributes of time and place and circumstance. Whereby the individual life is marked off
from the life of the whole. Again, the angel uncovered the man's eyes, and he looked.
He saw before him that which in its tiny drop reflects the whole universe. He saw that which
mocks within itself the step of the furthest star and tells how the crystal grows underground
where no eye has seen it. That which is where the germ in the egg stirs which moves the
outstretched fingers of the little newborn babe and keeps the leaves of the trees pointing upward.
Which moves where the jellyfish sail alone on the sunny seas and is where the lichens form on
the mountain drop. And the man looked, and the angel touched him, but the man bowed his head
and shuddered.
He whispered, it is God, and the angel re-covered the man's eyes. And when he uncovered them,
there was someone walking from them a little way off, for the angel had re-clothed the soul in its
outward form and vesture. And the man knew who it was, and the angel said, do you know him?
And the man said, oh yes, I know him, and he looked after the figure.
2
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
And the angel said, have you forgiven him? But the man said, how beautiful my brother is, and
the angel looked into the man's eyes, and he shaded is own face with his wing from the light. He
laughed softly and went up to God. But the men were together on the earth.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
Now, before we start our discussion, the point at which we stopped yesterday, Do you have any
questions to raise about the creative encounter? Have you found it, or is it still lost in the
bookstore? All right. There's a saying that comes from some part of the Old Testament,
allegedly, but it is this. That if Israel is not saved, Jacob will not lose his reward. So there it is.
Now, I'd like to begin by giving you one reference, a book which, if you are interested in
pursuing our search, which obviously can hardly be done in three weeks. There is a book written
by a Catholic priest which represents, from my point of view, the best composite of the generic
interpretation of mysticism with authentic source quotations. It is called Varieties of Mystic
Religion by Father Elmer O'Brien, Varieties of Mystic Religion by Father Elmer O'Brien. It's a
Holt Rinehart publication published in 1964, and it sells for $7.50.
Now, at the close of our discussion, we were dealing with the fact that it is the mystic's insight
that what he experiences which gives to him a sense of encounter with that which is ultimate.
And if he be a certain kind of religious man, he will label that ultimate by calling it God. And I
was suggesting to you that this element of which is the mystic speaks is regarded by him and by
many other people who think deeply on the subject as that which is essentially the givenness of
God.
It is-- to use a figure-- it is an increment which is basic structural to his very life, his very
essence. It isn't something that he achieves initially, but it is something that is given. It is a
manifest of the creator in the creature. And all that he, the mystic, feels under necessity to do is
to establish primary contact with this given increment which is inherent in him.
In one sense then, he shares this as a part of creation. It is the signature of the creator that is
inherent in his conscious. He may realize it by becoming aware of it, or its awareness may be
forced upon him in some sudden moment of illumination. Or a man may live his entire life
without becoming other than vaguely aware of the fact that there are moments when he seems to
be so much more than what he is at any given time, the various names by which this is given.
Sometimes, there are those who feel that a man becomes aware of this at a moment of
inspiration, for instance which gives to whatever the problem of his mind may be an
illumination.
What the orthodox-- what originally the Quakers referred to following the leadership or the
guidance of George Fox. The inner light, the inner light which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world, picking up a phrase or an intimation from the fourth gospel, the Gospel of John.
That this light, this inner light, is a part of the givenness of God. And that it is not only present in
human life, but it is a part of the totality of the experience of all living things. And indeed, there
are some people who say, who not only include among living things things that have specific
consciousness, like cats, dog, snakes, mice, flies, but that every living thing, trees, flowers.
You may have read a year or two ago it was rather popularized in many magazines about the
man in New York whose name I don't remember, but he's the man who developed the polygraph
machine. And in his experiments, he discovered that if he attached the wires of the polygraph
3
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
machine to the plants in his office, that the machine would register emotions in the plant that
were identical or their reaction to emotions that were in the man himself. And he received a great
deal of publicity about it, and an enterprising newspaper reporter came to check it out. So he
gave him a dry run.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
He said, my associate in the office can't stand these plants. Every time I go away for any length
of time, he refuses to water them. He forgets to water them, and there's a wall of hostility that is
generated in this office between him and the plants. He said, now, I'll test it out for you. So he
attached the wires to the plants, and then he buzzed and his associate came in the office. And as
soon as he appeared in the door, the indicator, ffft, went up like that.
I've experimented a little with this myself. When I lived in San Francisco before, I had about 20
roses in our backyard, and they were having a hard time to live. Because in the area of San
Francisco, where our home was located, there were only about two hours of sunshine on a day of
sunshine. And night did not ever quite come off, because the lights of the city, the fog would
reflect the lights. And we would stand in the backyard just as if it were a brightly-lighted,
moonlit evening.
So I developed the habit of going out before I retired in the evening. If I did not come in until
1:00 o'clock, 2:00 o'clock, whatever time it was before I went to bed, I went out to have a little
conversation with my roses. And I would say to them, now, I understand what a hard time you're
having, because you don't get enough sunlight. It's never dark, and living things must have
darkness as contrasted with light so that certain things that can happen to them. And growth can
only happen in the darkness and you don't that.
And there are rumors going around in the garden about your cousins in Portland, where the roses
are as large as saucers, and I don't want you to get an inferiority complex about this. So please
know that I believe in you, and I know you're doing the best you can. Just squeeze as much
energy out of the available sources as possible and do the best you can. And whenever I had a
blossom, I would very carefully give to them a little paean of praise for the fact that they'd finally
made it. It didn't look like much, but it represented the best that they could do.
And I know that of all the yards in our general neighborhood, I had the kind of rose blooming in
our garden that were not to be found in the rest of the neighborhood. Now, this may be, you see,
just a fiction in my mind. I don't know. I don't know where the reality is, but I do know that
before I started doing this, they were very-- I was full of compassion for them. But after I started
doing this, they stood on their own feet, and a rose is a rose, and it helped.
In other words, what I'm saying is that there are some who go even beyond the notion that this
givenness is a part of the basic residue, the ground, in all living things. Whether or not this is
true-- no, that's wrong. Whether or not it is a fact, it can be challenged, but perhaps the truth of it
remains untouched. Because the mystic affirms this sort of experience, that the ultimate is within
reach of every living thing. It is not merely in the reach of every living thing, but it is inherent in
every living thing.
This has exposed the mystic who affirms this to the accusation, or the judgment, that can best be
expressed by a term with which you're familiar named the Pantheism. Which seems to suggest as
4
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
an inference from this that everything is God, and God is everything. This is the rather severe
judgment that is cast upon this point of view.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
Now, I do not think, in technical terms, that the accusation is valid, because it is the attitude, this
attitude towards all living thing, that suggests that everything that is living is in some very real
sense sacramental. That the presence of the givenness of the creator in his creation makes of the
object of creation the a sacrament. A sacrament, because it carries within itself the signature of
the ultimate, the signature of the creator, but the mystic doesn't stop there.
There's a second thing that follows, and that is that there is always the assumption, and more than
the assumption, they insistence, that it is possible to cultivate this givenness. That it can be the
sphere of its influence in the common life can be enlarged, that it can grow, not in quality but in
the area that it covers in the life. Back of this second assumption is the whole exercise that is
characteristic of the mystic endeavor that we call spiritual exercise, and what is the aim of the
spiritual exercise?
As you see, if we have time before we're through, the aim of the spiritual exercise is to widen the
sphere of influence-- how to say this-- to widen the area of awareness in the individual of this
presence. That even though it is a part of the givenness, the influence of it, the spread of it-- if I
may use that term-- the spread of it is related to the way in which the individual puts himself at
the disposal of it. That there is a way by which this consciousness can grow and become more
and more central and [INAUDIBLE] in the life of the individual.
The result of this feeling, notion, idea, experience is that almost always the mystic has for
himself a pattern of behavior that is constantly being refined, tested. The fulfillment of which, or
the exercise of which, gives to him a sense that this presence-- this mark, this sign, this
imprimatur, whatever word you want to use-- this givenness of the creator is in him. So that
when he begins to work at it, each man discovers what for him are the most effective disciplines.
And they call them, in the Roman Catholic tradition, for instance, they're called spiritual
exercises.
But a curious thing to bear in mind is that with the possible exception-- that the possible
exception of Meister Eckhart about whom we will spend our last times together-- no mystic
insists that there is a necessitous relationship between the spiritual exercise and the result. Now,
this is very important. This is crucial.
Let me say it again. That given the function of the significance of the exercises, the means by
which the individual seeks to widen, to enlarge, his awareness of the presence of God in him, the
exercises are very important, very critical, very crucial, and I think necessitous. But there is no
guarantee, inherent or implicit, in the exercises themselves which says that if I do this and this
and this, God will come or my awareness of God will increase.
For there is assumed that the movement of the creator, the movement of God in his creation, has
an element in it that is arbitrary and this bristles with difficulties. If I can follow the prescription
that has been tested by those who have gone this way, who've make this journey, than I ought to
therefore be able to receive what they receive. But if, by any activity on my part, I can bend the
will of the creator, then it puts the creator at the disposal not only of my needs but of my whims.
5
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
And there's something very heady about that, if I know that I can follow a certain path, following
of which will guarantee that at a point along the way that which I seek will be available to me.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
There is no guarantee. This is important emphasis. But if I don't do it, then I may miss it. So the
problem always is am I following the right path, and by right, in this sense, am I following the
path that will lead me to the goal? Or is it possible for me to find out from within myself, from
the limited awareness that I have, can find out from that experience what I need to do in order to
enlarge the area of the sphere of his influence on my life?
Now, such questions as these are never quite resolved. One of the great formal steps along the
path is a word that you will encounter in your reading, if you do any, and that word is
detachment, detachment. And this is the point at which the whole concept of detachment
becomes relevant to the mystic's quest. For as paradoxical a contradictory as it sounds, as it
seems, if we start out saying, you see, that the whole world is resonant with God, with the
creator, then this includes all of my sense data, all of the reflective processes the mind. That I
may knock at any door of my senses and find, when the door opens, that I have this blessing, this
enlarged awareness, of the creator that's in me.
So the great systems have grown up around this. For instance, one of the great words in a man
like Eckhart is detachment, and he is a radical in this regard. He's he says that if I am able ever to
rid myself of creatureliness, then automatically, God fills me up. So that'd be his insistence is
that all the time I must disengage myself from all of the delusions of my senses. I must not
become so engrossed in the sense data which is mine that I lose the scent of the eternal.
This is inherent, for instance, in all of the notions which have to do with aestheticism, with the
laceration of the body, with the effort to rid one's self of stain of any sort. In Christianity, the
man perhaps who's had the greatest influence in this insistence is Saint Augustine. You may
recognize this at once. For coming as he did out of another system of thought, having the
experience that that's a thing that had tormented him all of his days, that had been responsible for
so much of his private and personal agony, was the battle which he had with his own body. That
the flesh, all of that sense experience, which for him not only a sense experiences but a sensual
experiences, that these were things which stood between him and actualizing the presence that
was in him.
And he felt that in so doing he was following the experience of Saint Paul, who in the seventh
chapter or Romans talks about the flesh and how wretched he was. And how the dichotomy
between the flesh and the spirit was so great that the flesh represented that which, in essence,
was a betrayal of the spirit. So this dualism, this conflict, turns up in particularly in Christianity
in the most extraordinary way.
But back of it, and the thing that I am insisting upon at this preliminary stage, is that detachment
becomes an important vehicle for ridding one's self of the things that divide, that separate, that
keep the individual from being constantly and fundamentally aware of the presence of God, or if
you want to say ground, in himself. And to betray that means that one turns his back on that
which is in him, the presence of the creator.
Now, how sound this is, is another question. I don't know what your reaction would be with it.
That the sense data, that the body, blocks the free-flowing.
6
�
AudioWithTranscription
Audio that is shown through the 3Play Media embedded interactive transcript
Audio with Transcription
<iframe width="100%" height="820" frameborder="0" src="/files/players/394-095_B.html" ></iframe>
Location
The location of the interview, speech, lecture, or sermon
University of Redlands, Redlands, California
Time Period
The decade in which the recording was produced.
1970s
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
394-095_B
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Thurman, Howard
Title
A name given to the resource
On Mysticism, Part 4 (University of Redlands Course), 1973
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/rp8k9">MSS 394</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://pitts.emory.edu/">Pitts Theology Library, Emory University</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/"><img style="border-width:0;" src="https://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-nc/4.0/80x15.png" alt="80x15.png" /></a><br />This work is licensed under a <a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License</a>. 2019.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
GEOMETRYCOLLECTION(POINT(-13042600.321303 4037296.9410534))
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1973-02
Description
An account of the resource
This recording is the fourth lecture in our collection of ten that Howard Thurman gave at the University of Redlands in 1973 on the topic of mysticism. Thurman indicates that this lecture functions as a means to point the listener towards practical approaches to mysticism through lenses of psychology, philosophy, and religious experience. Drawing from Olive Schreiner, Elmer O'Brian, and his own encounters, Thurman reflects upon God's (or The Ultimate's) sovereign providence. Thurman communicates this idea via the designation of "God's giveness." He notes that it is in personal "spiritual exercises" that one has the potential to be opened to this innate nature of God.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Description by Dustin Mailman
aestheticism
angel
creative encounter
ecology
Elmer O'Brian
failure
George Fox
giveness
Gospel of John
Holt Rinehart
inner light
interelatedness
Israel
Jacob
life
manifestations of life
Meister Eckhart
natural religion
Old Testament
Olive Schreiner
panentheism
pantheism
potential
presence
reading
roses
sacrament
Saint Paul
spiritual exercise
totality of experience
ultimate
unity
Varieties of Mystic Religion
-
http://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pittsthurman/original/2dde7811e8a9753f444cfcf27de57343.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI4CD764Y635IGLNA&Expires=1711727400&Signature=2vvUoKU24zkRx8MwDgPyy1PYTYo%3D
42a739f80823dd654c55eb254a961fed
PDF Text
Text
Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
394-358_A.mp3
Conversations with Howard Thurman, Friday, September the 19th, 1980.
And when I finish that, then I would like for us to get some introduction to each other,
[INAUDIBLE] wherever you want to say that can be repeated.
[LAUGHTER]
I'm sorry.
Is this part off the record?
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
Now, before we move in to the more [INAUDIBLE] part of our time, which begins when we talk
about our own search and who we are and anything that will give us a sense of you and your own
journey, I want to read something.
Oh, nothing is off the record, [INAUDIBLE]. But [INAUDIBLE] we are going to get acquainted
with each other inevitably at a what I hope to be an increasingly deeper level. So you don't need
to bother about that. But what we-- we want some handles, anything. Tell me your name to
anything else you want to say that would give you a feeling of being at home in our journey and
also just a glimpse of something else that is so important.
And that is that if for a minute maybe or a second, maybe for a lifetime-- I don't know-- but you
submit your passkey into somebody's hands so they can open the door and walk around and take
a look at that part of you that if it is seen, will give you a sense that your isolation is temporarily
broken.
Because I think that everybody feels in some way that he or she is-- well, I don't know how to
say it-- he is she is in a room in which there are no doors. And I think there's nothing quite as
confirming as the feeling that somebody knows you in that room. Someone knows you in that
room. But you can't shout loud enough for them to hear you. That's pretty grim, though, I think.
[LAUGHTER]
I don't mean to be grimmy like that, but sometimes I think that the whole journey of man's life is
to break out a sense of isolation, not solitariness, but isolation. And I think the spiritual root of
that is the great built-in desire to be understood.
In one of [INAUDIBLE] childhood experiences with her missionary parents in South Africa, a
favorite friend of hers who was the clergyman of the Anglican church-- [INAUDIBLE] her
father was a missionary for the London Missionary Society. And there was no great love
between these two offshoots to the Protestant religious experience.
And [INAUDIBLE] liked this man. But she was not permitted to give any evidence of this
because she was in the way. So she hid his hat. Because she knew that he wouldn't dare go out to
1
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
the South African sun without his hat. And they couldn't find it anywhere. And her mother called
her. Said, did you do anything with the father's hat or whatever she called him.
Oh, she said, yes. I hid it. I want him to stay with us forever. So I'm going to lose-- 10 years old,
now-- I'm going to lose my personal identity, so I can't remember what I did with it.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
[LAUGHTER]
You know, how insecure a parent must feel when a 10-year-old child says that to you. But I'm
concerned in our journey that one of the overtones that will come from this will be that now and
then when we want to open the door of our sense of isolation, we can feel that we are seen and
not stared at.
So when I finish reading this, we'll have a little moment. And then I'd like for each one of us to
say anything that gives us a scent on your trail.
In every life there are a few special moments that count for more than all the rest. And because
they meant the taking of a stand, a self-commitment, a decisive choice. It is commitment that
creates the person. It is the pressing need to find meaning for one's life, to subordinate the whole
of one's life to that mean.
It is this need, this inner inspiration which is from God. All the ideologies, all the doctrines, all
the formulas drawn up by men will pass. Every ideal, too, grows old in its turn. Only the true and
living god remains.
Thus, the knowing encounter with the living God is the greatest possible human event. The
circumstances and forms of this encounter may be infinitely variating. It always comes as such a
surprise that the conviction is inescapable, that it is the doing of God, the result of God's direct
initiative.
And then therefore, inherent in life is meaning, M-E-A-N-I-N-G. Inherent in life is meaning.
This is a quality independent of the way in which outside forces may operate upon it. The life in
the seed bursts forth in root and stalk and fruit. The whole process takes place within.
Now, many forces may operate upon it from without, cramping the roots, making the shape of
the stalk into a caricature of itself. But always, with whatever life there is, the built-in purpose is
never giving up. Concerning this meaning, there is no doubt wherever life appears.
This is the integrity of life. It is a commitment of life. This is the singular characteristic of all
aliveness. This is the miracle, the shaping of matter from within, the materializing of vitality.
The total experience seems to take place in a manner so pervasive that we look in vain for the
center, for the location, of the secret.
Can life's experience of itself at the level of tree and plant, cat and dog, even in the body of a
man, be also life's experience of itself at the level of the mind? Is there a meaning inherent in the
life of the mind itself? That is the unfolding of an inner logic not to be accounted for in terms of
stimulus from the outside or response to the outside.
2
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
May it be that all the dreams, the hopes, the creative flashes like summer lightning, which do not
ever quite desert the human mind, that all these are inherent in the mind itself? Has meaning
characteristic of the life in the mind? Wherever life appears, it carries with it meaning, which is
characteristic of all vitality.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
Life means inherent order, built-in goals, patterns, designs. When the form of life becomes more
complex, the fact, too, is reflected in the pattern, the design, and the purpose.
Now, it may be that in the mind of man and the rich diversity and depth of human thought, in the
searching restlessness of which the word "spirit" seems more appropriate, the life inherent is
moving always towards goals and ends that are sensed only when realized.
And beyond all these, there may be a life of mankind which is more than individuals, more than
groups, but in which there is a built-in purpose, aim, and goal. Perhaps this is why we seem
always to be presented with goals that can never be realized, that ends which can never be
fulfilled. Thus, the ultimate word which is reserved for god is creator. A creative act must always
be the person, the private act.
Now I would like for us to get acquainted with each other at a level that is surface, words. And
say anything you want to say that will give us peep holes into-- and we'll start-- [INAUDIBLE]
would you like to say yours so you can go?
I'm Sue Thurman. That's just [INAUDIBLE].
Well, I didn't mean-- all right. So you're at liberty to leave.
I'm going to sit over here so I can look at faces.
All right, dear. That's fine. But be our guest, sort of taking your leave whenever you-- Mary
Ellen will we start with you? And swing around.
I'm going to check the mic on the way to you.
I'm Mary Ellen and-Can you hear? You say it loud enough--
Let me ask a question before you start. Thanks, Mary Ellen. Are you all cool enough now that
we could shut this door? I'm getting so much traffic noise.
I would rather have it open, myself.
Seems noisy.
Crack it down a little bit, and then we'll be able-OK.
3
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
All right. OK.
You know my name is Mary Ellen. What maybe you don't know is that I'm sorry that I was late.
[LAUGHTER]
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
[INAUDIBLE] OK. I'm very happy to be here. It's a privilege to be here. I guess you're hoping I
say some things as a way of identification, so that kind of thing.
Yeah. Just-- not the whole story of your life, but enough to give us a handle. Anything you want
to say. Two minutes, three minutes, four minutes, six minutes.
[LAUGHTER]
I guess what I-- why I'm hesitating is because I don't-- we identify ourselves in different ways
sometimes depending on the person that we're talking with, I mean in the situation that you're in,
whether you're meeting a new friend or looking for a job or whatever. And I guess we're kind of
a different coming together, I feel.
So quickly then, I've been a teacher. I've done agency work. I like working with people. I like
working with children, especially. I have been married. I am divorced. I have three grown sons.
I'm now just beginning a leave of absence without pay from my teaching job.
I'm moving toward a simple life, I think, maybe out of necessity. And I will have this
[INAUDIBLE] maybe the year studying at Yale Divinity School. I have an interest in religion
and religions. And I have a part-time job at a day care center, which keeps me in touch with little
folks. So that's quite a bit about myself, I think, for a start.
Where were you born?
I was born in Des Moines.
[INAUDIBLE]
But I grew up in Detroit.
I'm [INAUDIBLE]. I'm 152 years old.
Let us guess.
My husband of 30 years is a chemical engineer. And we have four children, a son, 25, and girls
ages 23, 20, and 17. We're praying for strength to get her to 18. We live 15 miles from here, both
of us having come from New York state. My interests are religion, in the sense of how the
peoples of the world go about searching for god, psychology, holistic health, particularly the
connection between man's mental and physical health and his religious beliefs, reading and
writing.
4
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
I was trying to think of some kind of tribute to make to Dr. Thurman.
[INAUDIBLE]
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
Oh, I have something good. I found him 16 years ago in a book. And it would be very difficult to
explain what a good teacher and friend he has been all these years. And to me, he answers the
question which I had always had. Does God create man in his own image? And I was never sure.
And I met Howard Thurman. And I know he does. [INAUDIBLE]
Thank you. Coming here tonight is my 59th birthday present. And when I was 34 and a very
troubled young woman thinking, is this really all there is to life. I had a beautiful home, a
husband, and two children. But there was some little voice within me saying, is this all? Is this
all? I this all there is to it?
I had a first real breakthrough religious experience-- I had never belonged to a church-- in a CFO
camp. I won't go into that. But someone I met there-- well, I have to say first, my husband was
very disturbed by this experience that I've had. He was not there. He was not present.
And trying to figure out what was happening to me, he said, where are you now? Where are you
now? And I listened within myself, and the words that came was, I think I'm growing in love.
But I don't really know what that means. And the following Sunday, a young woman came to my
door. We'd been at the same CFO camp. And she said, put on your hat. We were at the breakfast
table. I'm taking you someplace.
No nos. I'm just taking you someplace, and you're to come. I know this is for you. And she took
me to Fellowship Church. And when I picked up the program for the day, the sermon with Dr.
Thurman was Growing in Love.
And when you were through speaking, I didn't think I was going to be able to leave the seat. I
felt like a piece of limp spaghetti. And I can't tell you what he said. I only know that he threw
open those doors you were saying were closed in time. And I knew that someone else knew and
that I was on the right journey. And that has been my journey and continues to be my journey.
[INAUDIBLE]
Presently, I was married for 30 years and divorced. And I'm in an entirely new life. I'm now
married to Del Anderson, who is the president of the overseas branch of CFO. Well, we have 64
camps around the world. And from the little housewife, mother, the acorn, the oak tree is
beginning to sprout. And I find that my world has become very large and that love needed to
grow to start encompassing that larger life. And so the larger world is growing me and I am
finding that oneness many, many places.
[INAUDIBLE]
I'm Kenny Wood. And I'm a second-year theology student at San Francisco Seminary in San
Anselmo. I was born in San Antonio, Texas and hadn't left Texas until this year, which was a
real hard move for my family, who is my wife, Sharon, and Tiffany, our little girl who's three.
5
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
I didn't know exactly why we were coming out here, except that there was a man at the seminary
who was a hero of mine named Browne Barr. I wanted to be a preacher. And a friendship began
between Dr. Barr and myself. And so we came. We packed up and came.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
I've worked with teenagers, junior high and high school, young people, in a Baptist Church in
Dallas for 10 years. And in our tradition, at least where I'd grown up, the emphasis has always
been on doing enough. And I didn't really have a sense that there was any more than that, that I
knew of.
And I see now from the experiences I've had since we've been here, that this is one of the reasons
that I'm here and that my family and I are here, to make a search inside that has surprised me.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I've always been [INAUDIBLE] but I haven't always been aware of it. But a good portion
of my life, I have been. And I experienced-- I mean, I've had some experience with reality, with
God. I haven't always been able to share my inner self as my wife, Lucille, can and does.
Incidentally, coming over, she was psyched up because she was looking forward to this so much.
And I said, gee, I won't even have to take to buy a cocktail after.
[LAUGHTER]
But this-- I just hit the jackpot. And then I found a birthday present that was so meaningful to
her. And I'm very grateful for that.
Yes. Thank you.
Because she's deserving of it.
Yes.
Whatever the best is that I can give to her.
I was born here in California right nearby. And that makes me unique, because [INAUDIBLE].
That's right. That's right.
[INAUDIBLE] As a boy, I was very poor, struggled, worked hard. And then through the grace of
God-- and it really was the grace of God. It couldn't have been otherwise. I was able to-- I was in
business. Had a dry-cleaning business. nothing very romantic about cleaning dirty clothing.
But when I was 43, I did retire from the economic [INAUDIBLE]. And have been able to do
many things that would have been impossible otherwise. And I've had-- God's blessed me with
tremendous [INAUDIBLE] high consciousness. And part of retirement going along, joyous and
skipping, and jumping and sometimes kind of kicking and screaming. But I've come along. And I
guess God's seen to that.
6
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
[INAUDIBLE]
I'm Ruth [INAUDIBLE] from Carmel, so I'm not very far away. I've been there 16 years. My
roots are on a farm in Kansas. But I came out to California and transplanted 56 years ago. Most
of my work life has been a secretary, a very odd secretary at times.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
I have spent my 75th year looking at everything that I was doing. This was a suggestion of a
friend. And it became quite an interesting experience to look at everything I was doing to figure
whether it was something I really wanted to do, or whether I was doing it just because I got into
it or because somebody else wanted me to do it and I was doing that kind of thing.
That included several activities in the Quaker Church, Methodist Church-- in fact, I grew up
thinking the Methodist Church was really the only church there was-- Doing some things down
there like taping sermons, and I'm on the finance committee and education committee, doing
things like having a mimeograph in my home and doing SPCA benefit schedule, mimeographing
a [INAUDIBLE] for my family. There are still six children living. And I'm the next to the
youngest.
Working in the League of Women Voters, doing some secretarial work for them, getting
involved in a health services study, which really helped us to persuade the National League that
they will be doing a health services study in a couple of years.
I'm now just past my 76th and filling in those things which I have sloughed off and have the free
time now. So what was my office is now wallpapered with paper where I can stick a thumbtack
in and isn't going to make any difference, get all my books in one room instead of six rooms.
And also to figure out what it was that made me in 1933 when I was at a Junior Business Girls
conference in [INAUDIBLE] became very interested in one of the adult faculty or adult leaders.
And since then our paths have kind of crossed pretty often. So I think one thing that's happened
is that all of those things led to right here and right now.
Yeah.
Lois [INAUDIBLE]. I was born in South Dakota on a farm. I love the wide open fields. I seem to
have a sense of god and the spirit within me. I've been on that journey ever since. It's led me into
openings of myself.
I'm married, have a husband, daughter, and son, five grandchildren. I am a secretary to the pastor
[INAUDIBLE] Paradise Methodist Church. I have found that as I am open to the spirit, things
come. So I've been able to write, thanks to God. I love to read.
I think the most joy I've had is being an enabler for people who have wanted to learn from
Howard. And we have a roundtable in our home twice a month, in which we gather around a
table to share, to celebrate life. We give them hot soup, crusty bread and fruit, listen to one of Dr.
Thurmond's tapes, and then discuss it. People find they are moved, the spirit moves within them,
and things were happening because of you. And things have certainly happened with me because
of you.
7
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
I'm Roger Eaton. I work in LA. I've come up to this symposium-- I'm not sure what to say.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Don't think. [INAUDIBLE] Don't think, just say it.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
Well, what I was thinking, actually, was that you talk about being people-- people were locked
in. Well, I don't feel locked in. I feel like I'm-- this is just something that struck me. And if you
press me on it, I won't be able to back it up.
Of course not.
I feel like I'm in a drafty hall. I don't feel looked in at all. On the other hand, it doesn't all quite fit
together. So honestly, I worked for Princess Cruises. That's the Love Boat. I work as a computer
operator there. And I guess I'm here because I think Dr. Thurman understands a lot of things. I'm
really interested to try and make sense of what's going on. And I'm hoping maybe I'll learn to.
That's it.
I'm trying to think of what to say, and everything all flows together. I'm Sarah [INAUDIBLE].
I'm from Minneapolis. I've lived in Minnesota all my life. I was born, like some of the rest of us,
on a farm. And I'm the oldest of three daughters.
I've lived in the Cities in Minneapolis for about 30 years. I'm a teacher. A week ago, my teaching
life turned upside down as I listened to the tape that you asked us to listen to, so much of it fit in
to so many things that are going on for me today and through this week that it has just been so
different that it is special to be here because of what we're talking about and sharing, also to get
away from all of the-- not chaos, because what happened involved my taking a stand and
following it through.
I first met Dr. Thurman in 1966. And I heard him at a church that he was speaking in in
Minneapolis. And after the service, you go up and shake the person's hand and be
[INAUDIBLE]. And when he does it, a sense of presence is there to give you the feel or at least
to give me the feel that he's someone you've known all your life. It's a very special gift. I don't
think I've ever met anybody that has-- where I've felt that since, besides Dr. Thurman.
The things that I do in living my life and trying to blend the faith that I have with the things that I
do so that-- well, and as in what he read tonight, [INAUDIBLE]. What is the name of the tape,
the book?
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
The Creative Encounter. And all of life, everything that we do, becomes part of the reflection of
what we believe. And I teach in the inner city, I guess you call it, some fantastic kids. And my
life has been very enriched by the experiences that I've been able to share with them and that
they have shared with me. I've learned a lot about things that I didn't know that even existed to
learn about, because of the experiences that I've had with children who I was never in contact
with as a child and in my growing years. And that's been very special. It's special to be here.
8
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
[INAUDIBLE] do you have anything to say before we-[INAUDIBLE]
Oh, no. I moved out of that because I can--
That's a good phrase.
[LAUGHTER]
Gee, whiz. Yeah, that's good.
[INAUDIBLE] Is there an interesting person [INAUDIBLE].
[INAUDIBLE]
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
I think he wants me to say how very pleased we are to have you here. [INAUDIBLE] Join the
procession of those [INAUDIBLE].
I am. I am writing [INAUDIBLE]. And I work with the tapes. [INAUDIBLE] These beautiful
quarters were made available to us in 1974, in July of 1974. A couple of years before that, I had
recently moved to San Francisco and had made contact with Dr. Thurmond again. I had met him
years before when I was on the East Cost.
He asked me one day if I would be interested in looking at some tapes, some old tapes that he
had, to see if they were worth anything. And we went out in the garage together. And there were
some boxes [INAUDIBLE] and neatly packed, just like they had been shipped from one part of
the country to the other.
And then there were other boxes where half the tapes were strung out, and this and that. We
decided that the thing for us to do was to begin the newest tapes and kind of work backwards.
And then at any place, we just stopped, we'd have the best-- what would look like the best
material.
Well, I'm still here. And this was in '72. And there wasn't a scrap of that. I don't believe there was
a scrap of tape that I was going to [INAUDIBLE] throw away. So it's been a very rich experience
for me. And I am very, very pleased to be here to share with you what will be our experience
together this weekend.
She is from New Mexico. [INAUDIBLE]
New Mexico. Cattle rancher's daughter. I grew up in a cattle ranch [INAUDIBLE].
I think it's important to say about Joyce that without the work that she's been doing, we simply
would have no records of this. Because I don't write stuff to talk. I don't write sermons. I don't
write anything. So that the only records I have of what has come through me became available
only after the plastic tape recorder was invented.
9
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
For instance, for 15 years, I worked at Howard University as dean of the chapel. And there isn't a
scrap of anything that was said during those 15 years that's available anywhere, because they
didn't have tape recorders. And so that one part of my life in this dimension began when
somebody down the peninsula came up with this Ampex-- I think it's Ampex--
10
�
AudioWithTranscription
Audio that is shown through the 3Play Media embedded interactive transcript
Audio with Transcription
<iframe width="100%" height="820" frameborder="0" src="/files/players/394-358_A.html" ></iframe>
Time Period
The decade in which the recording was produced.
1980s
Original Title
Title as transcribed from tape cassette
Conversations with Howard Thurman (parts 1 and 2) (80-9/19-20-21), 1980 Sep 19-21
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
394-358_A
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Thurman, Howard
Title
A name given to the resource
Conversations with Howard Thurman, September 1980, Parts 1 and 2, Side A
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/rp8k9">MSS 394</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://pitts.emory.edu/">Pitts Theology Library, Emory University</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1980-09-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/"><img style="border-width:0;" src="https://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-nc/4.0/80x15.png" alt="80x15.png" /></a><br />This work is licensed under a <a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License</a>. 2019.
Description
An account of the resource
This recording is a part of a wider series of conversations from September to October of 1980 where Howard Thurman met with a variety of young men and women who were discerning their calling to ministry. Thurman poses the intent of this group as an opportunity to "open up for one's self the moving, vital, creative push of God, while God is still disguised in the movement of God's self." Thurman's introductory remarks in this recording mention the tension that rests between isolation and solitude, noting that the "spiritual root" of breaking out of isolation is the "great built-in desire of being understood." These preliminary remarks set the foundation for the group of students who were sharing who they were, where they were from, and what their story was, to Howard and Sue Bailey Thurman.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Description by Dustin Mailman
aliveness
Anglican Church
being seen
Browne Barr
calling
choice
commitment
community
creative encounter
creativity
ecology
experience
Fellowship Church
Howard University
identity
imago dei
inner self
integrity of life
Isolation
Kansas
knowing
League of Women Voters
love
Love Boat
Minneapolis
New Mexico
Oak Tree
Olive Schreiner
oneness
order
passkey
religious experience
room with no doors
San Francisco Seminary
scent on one's trail
self-actualization
South Africa
South Dakota
Sue Bailey Thurman
teaching
vitality
Yale Divinity School
-
http://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pittsthurman/original/b616628e04b0baaa708d9d4d50d0e876.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI4CD764Y635IGLNA&Expires=1711727400&Signature=P9s9MehhoP%2F%2FvEfll14NU4Whp3k%3D
4e8f84e1cdd2de806bc981f83f6122e4
PDF Text
Text
Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
394-358_B.mp3
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
And so that one part of my life in this dimension began when somebody down the peninsula
came up with this Ampex-- I think it's Ampex-- was the first one of these things, from the wired
tape recorder, which I couldn't stand because I always got the wires tied up. And Joyce, then,
came into life out here just at the critical time, and all the boxes of tape-- I had an instinct to save
every little bit of anything. And there must've been, oh, I don't know how many big boxes of
tape.
And she was persuaded to let me take 15, 20, 25 boxes of tape over to the apartment where she
and her family lived. And since she was not working, she would spend the day listening to all
these tapes. And her mother would share in it, and that gave a certain kind of weightiness-[LAUGHTER]
--to it. And out of it came all of this material. Fortunately, during the days in Boston, because the
services were broadcast, the entire service was taped and then-- given live in the morning-- taped
so that at 5 o'clock in the afternoon, those people who wanted to hear the morning service could
hear it over the radio, so you had this.
And then for seven years, I had a meditation over the channel five-- whatever that thing is-- and
the university agreed to give to the city my services, with my permission, of course, hopefully.
And the only compensation for this thing every Friday morning-- I insisted that I would be given
the tape, so that when I would go to the studio on Friday, I'd pick up last week's tape.
And I did that because I could not have any conferences or anything growing out of the
meditation-- this because I had no time to give to anyone outside of the university. But anybody
who wanted transcriptions, the broadcasting company would have transcripts of the tapes made
and mailed out. So we had a mailing list of 6 or 700 people. And that's how we got those up
there. Those are the original ones.
I say all of this because I think it's important. Something happens, you know? And whatever
your skill is, if you can find a way by which this skill is your offering to God as your
Thanksgiving. Because of all the people who are dead, you're still living. And this is in a way by
which you can read God's mind so that you're ever sure that you're not living on borrowed time.
And it's this marvelous sense. Once you get there, you don't have to worry about it. So that's how
we got this set, and I'm very glad. Now before we start, Ms. Simmon, you-You need some light.
I will. Yes.
I'll get this one on here, right?
Now, I don't want-- now, but is that bad on anybody?
1
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
Lucille has the difficulties over-[INTERPOSING VOICES]
I'm legally blind and the light is a little hard for me, but-[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Well, no, look, look-But it's fine. You know we-Shh!
--do it every year.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Now wait, wait.
I need a glass of water. Does anybody else need a break before we proceed?
Now is this any better now?
Fine, thanks for asking. It really is just-Well, I don't-That other one really glowed but-Oh, well, don't you just-We were just about-Probably.
Over here?
Thank you.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
Oh!
I want to give a feeling about our journey, even revving up our motors and that sort of thing. At
the end of the-- thank you, my dear-- of introduction to why I'm involved in this, I want to say a
word about the technique-- how we are going to do what we are going to do. When I finish the
preliminaries, opening up, we will listen again as a group to the tape. I hope everybody received
the tape.
2
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
The procedures is very simple. You listen. At any point that you want the tape to stop because
you want to say something, react, contribute, raise a question, affirm, deny, but let the quality-the meaning of the tape-- flow through you, your mind and your spirit. One of the things that I
enjoyed very much as a boy growing up in Florida, I had my own little private oyster bed. That's
where I learned to fight and to experience defending your territory.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
And the thing that I loved most about my oyster bed was when the tide rose. That's the time the
oysters did their feeding, because they in a bed. They can't swim around. They can't chase any
food. So I would sit quietly and I'd watch the valve. You've seen oysters. I mean, everybody
knows, oh, well, it's something you eat, and it's a seafood. And they can't move because they are
all attached to each other. But when the tide rises and overcomes the bed, the oyster valve opens
like this.
And then, now and then, it does this. It can't pursue any food, but whatever the tide brings and it
recognizes-- this is my meal-- [CLAPS] it closes. And then after a while, it'll-- that's how it
feeds. So this is what I want your minds and your spirit to do. And it doesn't matter whether it
closes on what was perceived to be something you need to digest.
That's your only clue. We hope that when you stop the tape, you do not feel that you are
imposing on anybody else, but it is your moment to get a morsel. And it may not be a morsel that
anybody else sees, but that's not your business. Because nobody like you has ever been born and
will ever be born. You are the only you in all of the existences of existence.
And whatever life ultimately means, no one can find what it means for you except you. And
whatever the Creator of existence has to say to you-- other people may guess about it, but no one
can hear it except you. So as we move along, if you want the tape to stop, Joyce will stop it. And
you do whatever it's doing in you as if you are in this room by yourself. Because in a sense then,
this is the point.
Now-- one other thing-- it's very important that I must give you a feel of, if I can find how to do
it. One of the things that I have been searching for all of my life was to find a way by which I
could have a naked exposure to raw religious experience. And by that I mean the elemental
experience of religion before the mind tackled it and classified it.
The year-- the marvelous year I spent with Rufus Jones way back then, and I thought I was-- I
knew I was on the center of it. And I thought that-- and we would go along, particularly out in
the Tuesday night wrestling with Eckhart. And that's what they were. If you wanted to get a good
first-class headache, just sit down with Meister Eckhart's tract tapes and think you're
understanding them. It's a marvelous experience in humility and rage-- [LAUGHS] together.
Well, anyway, Rufus would-- I would be on the center of it, and then right at the critical moment,
he'd become a Quaker! And I was right back where I was. Now, and this is not a judgment or
anything of that sort, but in your spiritual journey, it is so crucial to have a sense of the
experience of religion which becomes the raw material that you use to get your creeds and your
doctrine and your dogma, but it's prior to this.
So this is what I'm on the search of, and been on the search of all my life. And this is a part of
why we're here. And I'll stop talking in a minute, Joyce. I feel you. It is like-- there's something
3
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
so vital and alive about elemental experience before you try to interpret what it means. Don't
worry about coming just what I'm talking about. It'll get clearer. You see, before the mind can
tackle it-- no, now that's wrong, that's wrong.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
As soon as the mind begins to deal with the raw materials of experience, the mind has to make
sense out of it. Particular meaning-- say you get doctrine. You get dogma, because the mind has
to think about it. So that if someone asks you, you couldn't tell them in language that fits into
categories of thought and meaning, all of that sort of thing.
But the moment that happens, the dynamism of the experience evaporates. It's-- well, I can talk
for the rest of my life and not say what I'm trying to say. So we proceed. We listen with whatever
listening apparatuses we have, and then give yourself over to the movement in you that reacts or
responds to what you are hearing with your outer and your inner ear. And that's what I'm
concerned about. And feel free to stop it at any point. Now I think that's everything, Joyce,
really.
[AUDIO PLAYBACK]
- I really, really do feel confident I will lay the foundation for our thinking this morning. The fact
that this is a-Is that too loud?
- --living world. Oh, it has wonderment. That is the Bible. Every level of our experience in life, it
is to grow outwards. Go up! That the import of it is missed. The life that is in you and in me, life
which we share, is alive. It is pulsing, throbbing, beating. It has no beginning that the mind can
grasp, apprehend, or comprehend-OK, I got it.
- --and no ending.
[END PLAYBACK]
Joyce.
Excuse me. Do you think that life is actually coordinated in ways that we have no knowledge of,
no hint of?
No, I don't-- I think this is the way it seems at any point that we relate to it. That's all I mean, that
it-- because you see, the way the mind works, it works in terms of some kind of logic-- a
beginning, an ending, some-- it cannot measure. No, no, that's wrong. That's not right.
In order for a thing to make sense to the mind, there has to be something that has to do with
beginning and ending, some context, so that you just don't slide off the universe. This way it'll
slide off the universe. That way it--
4
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
And so that's why it seems to me that whenever we think about life, the only way that makes any
sense, you think of it in terms of beginning and ending. But we know that what we are calling
beginning simply means the point at which we became aware of it. And ending-- we can't think
open ending, so we have to box it in.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
And that's why I think that as a concept, we cannot-- the mind can't wrap itself around a notion
that life itself is alive. And I'll get to that as we go along because-- I can feel it. I can experience
it. But I really can't comprehend this, because there's no logic in it. I can't think of something that
has no beginning. It has to start somewhere. There's a jumping-off place, some--
But you start by saying no, and now you're agreeing. Listen, I wanted to know if you thought that
life was coordinated in some way that cannot be-- that we don't have comprehension. We don't
have mental understanding.
Right, I agree with that.
Oh, I thought you started off by saying it wasn't.
No, no, no.
You do think that?
Yes, you see, because that's the only way we can deal with it. I'm not sure that this is
characteristic of what life is, but it's the part that comes down my street that I can handle. But
where it's been before it got to me and where it's going, it's a part of my guessing. And somebody
comes along who comes from regions that I cannot even imagine.
And we have to give a name to it so that whatever the infinite means to us, that's the name we
give this. And that's all right. It's the handle. May we go on now, Joyce?
[AUDIO PLAYBACK]
- How does it live?
Oh, scared me.
- It lives by feeding on itself! Life feeds on life. And it continues to be. Now the creative
encounter in the lodge is that moment when the barrier between the individual and the universe is
engulfed. That's a freeing moment.
When the customary experience of being shut up in your little world in Brooklyn is interrupted,
is ruptured, and you are no longer the prisoner of your own life. You are no longer the prisoner
of the events of your own life. Now that's the basic proposition on which, when you are feeling
bound, a few days.
[END PLAYBACK]
5
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
Could you stop now?
Joyce?
Yeah.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
When he said life feeds on life, and the physical dimensions of life supporting life, I think we
think of. But it crossed my mind just now- it didn't when I listened to it before-- of the level in
which we share in another dimension, a spiritual dimension, and feeding on life maybe in
another dimension.
If I understand you, I think this is how life nourishes itself in us. I think, for instance, that
whatever walls are built between human beings, or between forms of life, so that this expression
of life cannot be available as nourishment for some other form of life.
When that happens, in terms of conscious-relatedness, then the sense of isolation and being cut
off from nourishment that we need-- let's see if I can illustrate exactly what. One of the things
that I enjoyed doing when I was a boy growing up in Florida, in the spring of the year, early
spring, I enjoyed going down in the swamp with-- do you know what a swamp is?
Spell it out.
S-W-A-M-P. I mean, everybody looks so-- yeah. And I enjoyed going early in the spring and
before there were any signs of spring, even in Daytona, Florida. And you go into the swamp, and
you were pretty sure that the moccasins and so forth were on holiday somewhere.
[LAUGHTER]
And I'd get in the center of the swamp, and it's smelly, but it doesn't stink. It's dank, but it isn't
damp. And everywhere you look, all the mosses and the little pale green shoots. And you look up
at the trees, even the old oak trees that are old as God have little pieces of green things shooting.
And that's where I learned to be still-- not quiet. There's a great difference. And I would get still
enough, and I could hear the swamp breathe. And for hot minutes, as I would say, the life barrier
of little Howard Thurman and all these other things sort of slipped. There was just this sort of-and I didn't know which was the swamp and which was I.
And I'd come out of that place, and this is very cruel, but when I went fishing after that, any kind
of bait I put on my hook, I could get a fish. [LAUGHS] Bad on the fish, but ha!
[LAUGHTER]
Because I had temporarily moved into the flow of existence and had a religious experience. Now
I'd get into trouble, but yes, and when I start trying to name it and label it, then I've read it. If you
disagreed with it, I'm ready to kill you, because you would dare-- and all that sort of thing, so I'd
become very defensive. And that's why I feel that the spiritual dimension-- you catch it-- you
don't learn it. You catch it.
6
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
[INAUDIBLE] doing John R. Mott-- does that name mean anything to anybody in this room?
John R. Mott? Yeah. He was at one time-- well, his father did not want him to be contaminated
by religion. So he sent him to-- but he wanted him to have this profoundly wonderful education,
so he selected Cornell University. But it's Cornell University at that far-off time had-- was a
great stronghold of philosophy and metaphysics, science, but nobody bothered much about
religion. That was sort of out, about.
So this is where John R. Mott's father sent him and would protect him from all the
contamination. And his roommate in this house where they lived was a man whose name was
Wilder, who was the father of the World Student Christian Federation. Well, everybody here is
so young, but-[LAUGHTER]
At one time, the whole Protestant, particularly, missionary movement was nourished and
supported by young college people and young medical people who were sent all over the world
to teach and so forth as missionaries taking the gospel, and healing, and so forth.
Well, Wilder-- I don't remember his first name-- was the first secretary of this World Student
Christian Movement-- I think that's what it was-- anyways, and John R. Mott says that the first
night he spent with Wilder as they're roommates at Cornell, he caught religion as he catches the
measles.
[LAUGHTER]
And what his father was sending away from, he unwittingly sent him to. Now there's a-- and you
remember when Schweitzer went out the first time as a missionary? It was the London-- sent out
by the London Missionary Society, and he just finished his doctor's thesis of psychological
analysis of the personality of Jesus, one of these way-out things.
And he just finished the book on the historical Jesus. At the end, he gives us that great paragraph,
after debunking the whole thing, he says that very last paragraph, He comes to us as One
unknown, without a name. He speaks to us the strange words, "Follow Me," and to those who
would obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal Himself in the toils, and in the
sufferings, and the sorrows through which they shall pass in His fellowship, and, as an ineffable
mystery, they shall learn in their own experience Who He is.
Well, the London Missionary Society said, we'll send you out, support you. Heal people, but you
can't talk to them about religion. So his first service-- term of service, in the heart of Africa, as
the representative of the London Missionary Society, he was under a ban not to talk religion. So
the people to whom he ministered had to catch it. He was not permitted to preach-- to do
anything but heal.
And there's some people who've written about him who say that his most effective work was
done when he had to rely on tenderness, gentleness, on the imagination that comes from a trained
mind geared to healing human diseases, and when he had to speak the whole truth that he had in
that kind of sacramental expression of the healing art. And many people feel it was his most
7
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
effective years, not after Lambaréné was built and all this, but then, when he wasn't permitted to
beat his gums-[LAUGHTER]
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
--but he had this manifested through-- all right, Joyce, I'll be here all night, so just leave, and I'm
sorry.
[AUDIO PLAYBACK]
- There are at least four levels of this kind of experience. I'd like you to think a bit about it. That
is the kind of food of inner stimulus, the inner zeal where we have what is called a momentary
flash-Aah, yes.
- --of profound inspiration maybe, however human. When suddenly there is an opening, an
opening, and you see beyond the moment. You get a quick, fleeting glimpse of a possibility in an
idea with which you have been working. And you go round and round and round and round, and
suddenly, what was a wall opens up, and then closes. Paracelsus talks about this.
Yeah!
- I was a wanderer so long, the way I sought lay hid. And then, he says, the clouds broke. And as
the clouds broke, they revealed the spires of the city, and the clouds came back together again.
But Paracelsus says, I have seen the city that I glimpsed. And that view, no darkness can
obscure. This is one kind of encounter. It is fleeting. It is temporary as far as the time interval is
concerned.
It is exciting. Sometimes it is devastating. Sometimes it causes the whole mind and spirit to
tremble like a leaf in the wind. It passes. The barrier between the individual life and something
wider is removed, and then comes back. We've all had it. Then there is the kind of an experience
for when the life-- this distractions are the memoria.
When the life-- your life or my life-- seems to be anchored in a certain direction, what the poet
sometimes call a set of the soul, what we may call on in other language the way in which the life
seems to be focused towards an end. And then you look back upon your life, you see that ever
since you were aware of yourself, it seems as if all of the details of your life, all of the
meaningful experiences of your life, all of them have been moving in a certain direction.
And that at times, when you were not even aware of it, it seems that this direction happens. And
they-- you know they moved the cable car from California Street-- because I lived in San
Francisco. Always you could hear the cable moving. The cable was under the ground, but it's this
very wonderful sight.
So that if you went to sleep before 1 o'clock in the morning, and when the cable stopped, you
woke up, because the movement of the cable has lulled you to sleep. And then you thought all
8
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
was not well because the cable wasn't moving. Now how did the car move on this cable? The car
was anchored with a trap of some sort onto the cables, and it--
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
[END PLAYBACK]
9
�
AudioWithTranscription
Audio that is shown through the 3Play Media embedded interactive transcript
Audio with Transcription
<iframe width="100%" height="820" frameborder="0" src="/files/players/394-358_B.html" ></iframe>
Time Period
The decade in which the recording was produced.
1980s
Original Title
Title as transcribed from tape cassette
Conversations with Howard Thurman (parts 1 and 2) (80-9/19-20-21), 1980 Sep 19-21, Side B
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
394-358_B
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Thurman, Howard
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/rp8k9">MSS 394</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://pitts.emory.edu/">Pitts Theology Library, Emory University</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/"><img style="border-width:0;" src="https://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-nc/4.0/80x15.png" alt="80x15.png" /></a><br />This work is licensed under a <a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License</a>. 2019.
Title
A name given to the resource
Conversations with Howard Thurman, September 1980, Parts 1 and 2, Side B
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1980-09-19
Description
An account of the resource
This recording is a part of a wider series of conversations from September to October of 1980 where Howard Thurman met with a variety of young men and women who were discerning their calling to ministry. Thurman poses the intent of this group as an opportunity to "open up for one's self the moving, vital, creative push of God, while God is still disguised in the movement of God's self." In this recording, Howard Thurman reflects with the participants what it means to live into one's calling as an offering of Thanksgiving to God. At the center of navigating his sense of calling, Thurman indicates that life feeds off of itself, and that it is in one's recognition of life's innate interwovenness, that the only response one's mind can have is making sense of one's lived reality.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Description by Dustin Mailman
Albert Schweitzer
Brooklyn
calling
conversation
Cornell University
creative encounter
doctrine
dynamism
historical Jesus
John R. Mott
journey
life feeding upon life
light
meaning making
meaning of life
meditation
Meister Eckhart
mind
mysticism
Oak Tree
oyster bed
Quakers
religious experience
Rufus Jones
San Francisco
swamp
tape recorder
-
http://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pittsthurman/original/0464de755245ab3c57ea64d9fbe2ae30.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI4CD764Y635IGLNA&Expires=1711727400&Signature=pvtPM7NDZKFDeSAda4EMk902Gt4%3D
f5fc14f8d2afb531619680d875a2c13a
PDF Text
Text
Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
394-361_B.mp3
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
It does not mean that I can get rid of my responsibility for the choices. And that seems so unfair.
And I build some sort of immunity that keeps me from-- do you remember in-- forgive me for
asking you that way, because that's presumptuous. But in Hunchback of Notre Dame, who wrote
that?
Hugo. Victor Hugo.
Yeah, Hunchback of Notre Dame, you remember in that, that marvelous picture, way up in a
little cell, under one of the towers of Notre Dame. The priest is attracted by music that comes up
from the square in front of the cathedral. And when he walks over to the window and looks
down, he sees this beautiful gypsy dancer.
And something in him screamed, yes, as he staggered back from the window. And he took a
rusty nail, which was on the desk and carved in the cement wall ananke, which is "fate." And
then he realized what was happening to him, and he began to celebrate his emotions with a
fantastic series of unholy thoughts, feelings that finally burst out in words, and he said, ah, she is
so beautiful. So beautiful is she that if she had been on Earth when Jesus Christ was being born,
he would have selected her for his mother. So beautiful is she that the sight of her is more to be
desired that the sight of God.
And then suddenly, he realized what he said and what it meant, and then became shadowed with
repentance. And he talks to God now. He says to God, it's not my fault. As long as you sent
phantoms of the devil to me, in the form of these beautiful gypsy dancers, I could withstand that.
But when you sent the devil himself to me in this beautiful gypsy dancer, I had it, and you know
it, because you know that you did not make me and the devil of equal disgrace, so it's your fault.
And he became a priest again. Now-- what I'm trying to find the words to express is that I am
responsible for my journey, and in a very real sense, I did not choose my journey.
So that somewhere, there has to be either compassion, mercy, understanding, or a recognizing of
the fact that God could be mistaken. I must be responsible for my journey, and ultimately, I'm
not responsible for my journey, so that all religions of whatever kind they may be has to make
provisions for these two things to be resolved.
I live my life with a sense of absolute responsibility and freedom, and there is no such a thing as
having no responsibility and of being free. Yes.
Could it be that we have a responsibility to attain what [INAUDIBLE] called hinds' feet, or
tracking with it, so that our subconscious and our conscious are in perfect alignment, and that our
goal is to be to this place where the spontaneity or involuntary or intuitiveness of God is what is
coming through, and our only responsibilities would be to say yes and move out with it?
Yes. But the dilemma for me is that where I am staking my life, I want to be sure, or else be
shadowed by something that will take responsibility for my duties. You see, what's worrying me
is where my life is that I insist on being my own person.
1
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
But you can say yes or no. I can say yes or no.
Ah, now you're getting it.
But I choose by the divine grace of God to will, to say, yes, and that is the only freedom there is.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
But suppose I just elect to say yes and leave out the divine grace of God and all the sanctions, all
the sanctions that I must have. You put your finger on something. When I became ill some years
ago, and the doctors didn't know what, whether there'd be a tomorrow and so forth. I wanted time
to deal with this. I wanted time to think about it, to feel my way all the way through it, to
discover how I would vote.
Now, my vote had nothing to do with what happened. That's irrelevant. And then I had to get that
straight first. Something deep at the core of me had to be honored. I had to say yes or no, having
nothing to do with living or dying. I had to separate myself from that. Now, once I said yes or no,
all the subsequent unfolding was working on another kind of agenda, just as if it was a dog or a
cat or my daughter, my sister, my friends.
But I had affirmed the grounds of my integrity, and I had to separate that from my feet, from my
destiny, when all the time I associated destiny with my choices. But I don't really see what I'm
talking about. Let me try it again. I feel so many vacuums.
Now, yes, there is a sense in which I think a person lives as if there was no other living thing in
existence, except himself or herself. A deep, central, frontal intimate sense of absolute privacy,
where my thoughts are as elemental as thought itself, where my feeling tones are so
devastatingly mine.
That the power of veto has certification rests there, not because it makes any difference outside
of that tight circle in which I lay claim to my own life, as if no one and no thing existed except
that, the only reality. Now, once I pitch my tent there, what happens to me is important, whether
it makes any difference, going up or down, no. But the grounds of my very being affirm
themselves or itself.
Now, that may be the great idolatry. I don't know. Thou shall have no other gods before me. I
don't know. But I know this, that the only freedom that I know anything about is a freedom
somewhere deep within whatever it is. I say yes or no to life, not because it influences what
happens, but because it is the ultimate trysting place between me and the creator.
Now, I think that is the very ground and the essence of religious experience. Now, when I
worked that out into the pattern of my life and get it into designs and techniques and methods
and so forth and so on, then that can be communicated. I can talk to you about it. But that's not
how you live. That's not how you live. That's not where you're energized. That's not the thing
that happens to you when you show you can stand anything life can do to you, and it makes no
difference, because life can't touch this. That's eternal.
And you stand at the gate. It's where you say yes or no, not because it makes any difference,
other than yes and no. When that's honored by you-- only you can betray it-- when that's
2
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
honored, anybody can vote, [INAUDIBLE] anybody. You can be victimized by any citizens. The
will of God can come in, [INAUDIBLE] your leadership around, but nothing touches this.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
I think this is the God in you, to use a word that may become really confusing. But it is where the
eternal becomes time bound, right at that little-- and it's the only freedom there is. It's the only
freedom there is. And one of the terrible things to me about all of the paraphernalia of religion
and religious experience, it tends to set up roadblocks, so you can't get back there. You take
refuge in this, saying this creed, this dogma, this doctrine, but in all those places, you have to
rent a room.
And you live there as long as you can pay the rent. But you're not home. There's only one home.
Well, that's enough about it. I'm sorry. But it's true. It's just true, and if it's true, it's true. Can we
stop now, Joyce?
Did anybody else have anything to add to that?
We can take it somewhere else, and it might take time. So I don't want [INAUDIBLE]-Well, don't---this whole thing from yesterday.
Well, you better do it while you have a chance.
OK. Well I asked if you have anymore to say, and you might say, no. And then it would be over.
Fine. No, no, no, it's over.
Something that you said near the end of our session yesterday, and it was disconcerting and also
kind of haunting to me, and that's about being on the scent of the spiritual life, and when you
smell it, you better bird dog it, because if you don't, you lose the scent, but then that was all OK.
Thank you.
But than you also say that whoever can point that out to us as we go along at that moment
becomes our Savior, and that was OK.
All right.
Whoever becomes your Savior, you have to kill.
Yes.
Oh, that was so hard to hear, because the Savior has to die or become a god-Ah.
3
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
--and then in something in between.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
That's it. That's it, you see. The only way that you can keep from killing your savior is to give
him outside of life and death. And why must you kill your Savior? All the religions of the world,
the Savior has to die. And why must he die? Because knowing enough about you to redeem you
gives him power over your life. And with that power, you're never sure he can be trusted not to
make you do with your life what you have no intention of doing, what you don't want to do.
But he deals with you out of his awareness of your vulnerability and your weakness, and your
secret becomes his secret, and is no longer secret. And he can pull this string and make you do
this, or desert you. Because then you were deserted, he found you and gave your name. And
you're never sure that even God can be trusted not to take chances with you that nobody has the
right to take.
But if-- this is the terrifying thing about surrendering a life and commitment, because you give
up the power of veto and certification over your own life, and once you do that, then something
may be required of you that not only is unfair, but you just have no intention of being involved in
doing. But once the Savior becomes God, the Savior always has to escape with his life by
becoming a god. Now, once he's a god, your weakness will not be exploited. Yes.
How did predestination, which I just can't believe in, come into play?
Well, I don't think-- I think that's just a convenient clothes line on which you hang a lot of things
that we can't explain. But the road block that it sets up, I think, in the human spirit is that it
destroys options. And yet, you know, there is an inescapable little feeling that the responsibility
for myself is not absolute and final.
The most comforting part of my childhood as I grew up was the fact that I had two sisters, one
older and one younger, and whatever my mother caught me in those nice innocent things that I
did as I grew up, I could always say I did it because my older sister made me, and even though
I'm not in that predicament any longer, the mood of it has lingered.
Is there a difference between ordained or preordained and predestination?
I don't know. I don't know. I think that there is a logic in life, I'll put it that way. And I think that- how to put this. I think that as we live, we generate momentum in the direction that we are
going. So that when you stop pedaling and pushing, it keeps going.
I think further that I create my own judgment days that processes are set in motion by things I do
that continue moving long after in me I have changed directions. And I think that it's like going
out and turf riding along the Atlantic coast in East Florida. You go out a certain distance, and the
waves was coming from deeper are on their way to the shore, and the part of the game was trying
to get ahead of the wave that's coming and get to the shore before it does. But you always
underestimate the speed.
And somewhere along the way, the tide catches you and sweeps you on, that there is a-- we set in
motion processes that continue long after we are interested in them. But they take us along,
because this is-- we can't separate ourselves from the momentum, and that's why making critical
4
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
choices, I think, is important, but the delusion is that whether the choice I make will make any
difference that will divert the pattern of choices, that I've made up to that time, they have to
spend themselves, even though I have changed direction.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
And I have to deal with that. And I think this is why in all the religions in one way or another,
the whole doctrine of karma comes in. You-- or the doctrine even of original Christianity, some
aspects of it, the doctrine of original sin. What we don't know is which of the choices we made
give the momentum to the process in which our lives are caught now, because it may be what it
is working itself out in us is the result of a choice we made, having no way by which we could
determine that the choice 10 years after meant this. And the wheels of time move forward
always, backwards never.
This is what I have to accept, not by choice, perhaps, because I don't have any choice. If I could
just get back to the place, where I've made the choice, knowing what I know now. But I don't.
And I have to find some way by which I can introduce a new direction to the old movement, so it
becomes my servant rather than my enemy.
Yeah, that's right. Now-Do we want to take a break?
A break. Ah, yes.
As we sit together in sanctuary, in one way or another, the quest which is ours is the same. We
want to know what it is that ultimately we amount to, what is meaning of the life which is our
lives to live? How can the day's tasks become full of the glory and the vitality, which are ours in
those rare moments, when life is full, and its meaning is clear.
We expose this searching quest and this great hunger to thee, our Father, with the hope that
somewhere in this waiting experience, we may be blessed with thy spirit. Thy spirit. Oh living
God, thy spirit.
The creative encounter integrity, sing your own songs at the river. Sing your own songs. Out of
yesterday's song comes, it goes into tomorrow. Sing your own song. With your life, fashion
beauty. This, too, is the song. Riches will pass, and power. Beauty remains. Sing your own song.
All that is worth doing, do well, said the river. Sing your own song. Certain and round be the
measure, every line be graceful and true.
Time is the mode, time, the weaver, the carver, time, and the workman together. Sing your own
song. Sing well, said the river. Sing well. Our experience together this morning will be divided
into two parts. As a preliminary to the whole, let me reach back and pull together the basic
insight on which we are working these mornings.
We created an encounter that has meaning as an idea and an experience, because of a deeper and
prior experience of man with life, namely that life is a lie, that the most important thing about it
is the fact that it is alive, and it is the aliveness of life that sustains all of a particular expressions
of life, and the aliveness of life is guaranteed and maintained because life lives by feeding on
itself.
5
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
The degree, then, to which the individual at a moment is experienced is able to sense that the
barrier that stands between him and a wider context of meaning is removed, so that that which is
deepest and most frontal in him becomes one with that which is deepest and most frontal in life.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
The integrity of the encounter is in the encounter itself. The integrity seeks to maintain itself in
the way in which the individual finds that his life is altered or structured because of what he
experienced in his creative encounter.
There must be a straight line of continuity between the integrity of the encounter and the life that
flows from the encounter. Now, part one. I'd like to read something. You will pardon-- well, you
will listen. The first robin, it is called. York, Pennsylvania-- this is in quotation-- with the
temperature at 10 degrees below 0, the first robin of the year was seen in New York today. It was
found dead on Penn Common. That's the end of the quotation.
Call me a sentimentalist, if you will, but this seems to me the most tragic news note of the cold
wave. I like people better than robins, and there has been widespread and agonizing suffering,
but you see this was the first robin. He was, by all odds, the pioneer of this clan.
He flew up from the South days, weeks, and months before any reasonable robin weather was to
be expected. Without doubt, the rest tried to discourage him. They spoke of the best recorded
experience of bird time. "Rome wasn't built in a day," some other robin told him. And no doubt
he was advised that if he insisted on such precipitous action, he would split the group, and no
good would come of it.
Somehow I seem to hear him saying, "If 10 will follow me, I'd call it an army. Are there two who
will join up, or maybe one?" But the robins all recoiled and clung to their little patches of sun
under the southern skies. "Later, maybe," they told him, "not now. First, there must be a
campaign of education." "Well," replied the robin, who was all for going to York, Pennsylvania,
without waiting for feathery reinforcement, "I know one who'll try it. I'm done with arguments.
And here I go."
He was so full of high hopes and education dedication that he rose almost with the roar of a
partridge. For a few seconds, he was a fast-moving speck up above the palm trees, and then, you
couldn't spot him even with field glasses. He was lost in the blue and flying for dear life.
"Impetuous, I call it," said one of the elder statesmen while someone took him a worm.
"He always did want to show off," announced another, and everybody agreed that no good would
come of it. As it turned out, maybe they were right. It's pretty hard to prove that anything has
been gained when a robin freezes to death on Penn Common. However, I imagine that he died
with a certain sense of elation.
None of the rest thought he could get there, and he didn't. The break in weather turned out to be
against them. He just guessed wrong in that one respect, I'm told. I wouldn't think of calling him
a complete failure. But news gets back home to the robins who didn't go.
I rather expect they'll make of him a hero. The elder statesmen will figure that since he is dead,
his ideas can't longer be dangerous, and they cannot deny the lift and the swing of his venture.
After all, he was the first robin. He looked for the spring, and it failed him. Now he belongs to
6
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
that noble army of first robins. Many great names are included. The honors of office and public
acclaim, of ribbons and medals, the keys of the city-- these are seldom the perquisites of men or
birds on the first flight. They go to the fifth, sixth, and even 20th robins. There's almost a rule
that the first robin may die alone on some bleak common before mankind will agree that he--
7
�
AudioWithTranscription
Audio that is shown through the 3Play Media embedded interactive transcript
Audio with Transcription
<iframe width="100%" height="820" frameborder="0" src="/files/players/394-361_B.html" ></iframe>
Time Period
The decade in which the recording was produced.
1980s
Original Title
Title as transcribed from tape cassette
Conversations with Howard Thurman (parts 7 and 8), 1980 Sep 19-21, Side B
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
394-361_B
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Thurman, Howard
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/rp8k9">MSS 394</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://pitts.emory.edu/">Pitts Theology Library, Emory University</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/"><img style="border-width:0;" src="https://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-nc/4.0/80x15.png" alt="80x15.png" /></a><br />This work is licensed under a <a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License</a>. 2019.
Title
A name given to the resource
Conversations with Howard Thurman, September 1980, Parts 7 and 8, Side B
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1980-09-20
Description
An account of the resource
This recording is a part of a wider series of conversations from September to October of 1980 where Howard Thurman met with a variety of young men and women who were discerning their calling to ministry. Thurman poses the intent of this group as an opportunity to "open up for one's self the moving, vital, creative push of God, while God is still disguised in the movement of God's self." In this recording, Thurman explores what it means to live one's life with a robust sense of responsibility and freedom. He notes that there is a crucial decision to be made when considering responsibility and freedom: saying yes or no to the life that rests within oneself. Following these sentiments, Thurman provides space for students to ask questions, to which they asked questions of was it means to "follow the scent of the spiritual life," "why the savior of all world religions must die," and predestination.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Description by Dustin Mailman
autonomy
awareness
blame
center
consciousness
consent
creative encounter
decision
ecology
education
fate
freedom
grace
hope
Hunchback of Notre Dame
hunger
integrity
Jesus Christ
judgement
karma
kill your savior
older sister
original sin
predestination
quest
religious experience
responsibility
river
Robin
savior
scent
sentimentality
sing your own song
spring
time bound
veto
Victor Hugo
vitality
vulnerability
world religions