1
10
2
-
http://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pittsthurman/original/2dde7811e8a9753f444cfcf27de57343.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI4CD764Y635IGLNA&Expires=1711674600&Signature=zo3NZD%2FmD7ZYO6jrkP%2BbSYzZwOg%3D
42a739f80823dd654c55eb254a961fed
PDF Text
Text
Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
394-358_A.mp3
Conversations with Howard Thurman, Friday, September the 19th, 1980.
And when I finish that, then I would like for us to get some introduction to each other,
[INAUDIBLE] wherever you want to say that can be repeated.
[LAUGHTER]
I'm sorry.
Is this part off the record?
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
Now, before we move in to the more [INAUDIBLE] part of our time, which begins when we talk
about our own search and who we are and anything that will give us a sense of you and your own
journey, I want to read something.
Oh, nothing is off the record, [INAUDIBLE]. But [INAUDIBLE] we are going to get acquainted
with each other inevitably at a what I hope to be an increasingly deeper level. So you don't need
to bother about that. But what we-- we want some handles, anything. Tell me your name to
anything else you want to say that would give you a feeling of being at home in our journey and
also just a glimpse of something else that is so important.
And that is that if for a minute maybe or a second, maybe for a lifetime-- I don't know-- but you
submit your passkey into somebody's hands so they can open the door and walk around and take
a look at that part of you that if it is seen, will give you a sense that your isolation is temporarily
broken.
Because I think that everybody feels in some way that he or she is-- well, I don't know how to
say it-- he is she is in a room in which there are no doors. And I think there's nothing quite as
confirming as the feeling that somebody knows you in that room. Someone knows you in that
room. But you can't shout loud enough for them to hear you. That's pretty grim, though, I think.
[LAUGHTER]
I don't mean to be grimmy like that, but sometimes I think that the whole journey of man's life is
to break out a sense of isolation, not solitariness, but isolation. And I think the spiritual root of
that is the great built-in desire to be understood.
In one of [INAUDIBLE] childhood experiences with her missionary parents in South Africa, a
favorite friend of hers who was the clergyman of the Anglican church-- [INAUDIBLE] her
father was a missionary for the London Missionary Society. And there was no great love
between these two offshoots to the Protestant religious experience.
And [INAUDIBLE] liked this man. But she was not permitted to give any evidence of this
because she was in the way. So she hid his hat. Because she knew that he wouldn't dare go out to
1
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
the South African sun without his hat. And they couldn't find it anywhere. And her mother called
her. Said, did you do anything with the father's hat or whatever she called him.
Oh, she said, yes. I hid it. I want him to stay with us forever. So I'm going to lose-- 10 years old,
now-- I'm going to lose my personal identity, so I can't remember what I did with it.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
[LAUGHTER]
You know, how insecure a parent must feel when a 10-year-old child says that to you. But I'm
concerned in our journey that one of the overtones that will come from this will be that now and
then when we want to open the door of our sense of isolation, we can feel that we are seen and
not stared at.
So when I finish reading this, we'll have a little moment. And then I'd like for each one of us to
say anything that gives us a scent on your trail.
In every life there are a few special moments that count for more than all the rest. And because
they meant the taking of a stand, a self-commitment, a decisive choice. It is commitment that
creates the person. It is the pressing need to find meaning for one's life, to subordinate the whole
of one's life to that mean.
It is this need, this inner inspiration which is from God. All the ideologies, all the doctrines, all
the formulas drawn up by men will pass. Every ideal, too, grows old in its turn. Only the true and
living god remains.
Thus, the knowing encounter with the living God is the greatest possible human event. The
circumstances and forms of this encounter may be infinitely variating. It always comes as such a
surprise that the conviction is inescapable, that it is the doing of God, the result of God's direct
initiative.
And then therefore, inherent in life is meaning, M-E-A-N-I-N-G. Inherent in life is meaning.
This is a quality independent of the way in which outside forces may operate upon it. The life in
the seed bursts forth in root and stalk and fruit. The whole process takes place within.
Now, many forces may operate upon it from without, cramping the roots, making the shape of
the stalk into a caricature of itself. But always, with whatever life there is, the built-in purpose is
never giving up. Concerning this meaning, there is no doubt wherever life appears.
This is the integrity of life. It is a commitment of life. This is the singular characteristic of all
aliveness. This is the miracle, the shaping of matter from within, the materializing of vitality.
The total experience seems to take place in a manner so pervasive that we look in vain for the
center, for the location, of the secret.
Can life's experience of itself at the level of tree and plant, cat and dog, even in the body of a
man, be also life's experience of itself at the level of the mind? Is there a meaning inherent in the
life of the mind itself? That is the unfolding of an inner logic not to be accounted for in terms of
stimulus from the outside or response to the outside.
2
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
May it be that all the dreams, the hopes, the creative flashes like summer lightning, which do not
ever quite desert the human mind, that all these are inherent in the mind itself? Has meaning
characteristic of the life in the mind? Wherever life appears, it carries with it meaning, which is
characteristic of all vitality.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
Life means inherent order, built-in goals, patterns, designs. When the form of life becomes more
complex, the fact, too, is reflected in the pattern, the design, and the purpose.
Now, it may be that in the mind of man and the rich diversity and depth of human thought, in the
searching restlessness of which the word "spirit" seems more appropriate, the life inherent is
moving always towards goals and ends that are sensed only when realized.
And beyond all these, there may be a life of mankind which is more than individuals, more than
groups, but in which there is a built-in purpose, aim, and goal. Perhaps this is why we seem
always to be presented with goals that can never be realized, that ends which can never be
fulfilled. Thus, the ultimate word which is reserved for god is creator. A creative act must always
be the person, the private act.
Now I would like for us to get acquainted with each other at a level that is surface, words. And
say anything you want to say that will give us peep holes into-- and we'll start-- [INAUDIBLE]
would you like to say yours so you can go?
I'm Sue Thurman. That's just [INAUDIBLE].
Well, I didn't mean-- all right. So you're at liberty to leave.
I'm going to sit over here so I can look at faces.
All right, dear. That's fine. But be our guest, sort of taking your leave whenever you-- Mary
Ellen will we start with you? And swing around.
I'm going to check the mic on the way to you.
I'm Mary Ellen and-Can you hear? You say it loud enough--
Let me ask a question before you start. Thanks, Mary Ellen. Are you all cool enough now that
we could shut this door? I'm getting so much traffic noise.
I would rather have it open, myself.
Seems noisy.
Crack it down a little bit, and then we'll be able-OK.
3
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
All right. OK.
You know my name is Mary Ellen. What maybe you don't know is that I'm sorry that I was late.
[LAUGHTER]
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
[INAUDIBLE] OK. I'm very happy to be here. It's a privilege to be here. I guess you're hoping I
say some things as a way of identification, so that kind of thing.
Yeah. Just-- not the whole story of your life, but enough to give us a handle. Anything you want
to say. Two minutes, three minutes, four minutes, six minutes.
[LAUGHTER]
I guess what I-- why I'm hesitating is because I don't-- we identify ourselves in different ways
sometimes depending on the person that we're talking with, I mean in the situation that you're in,
whether you're meeting a new friend or looking for a job or whatever. And I guess we're kind of
a different coming together, I feel.
So quickly then, I've been a teacher. I've done agency work. I like working with people. I like
working with children, especially. I have been married. I am divorced. I have three grown sons.
I'm now just beginning a leave of absence without pay from my teaching job.
I'm moving toward a simple life, I think, maybe out of necessity. And I will have this
[INAUDIBLE] maybe the year studying at Yale Divinity School. I have an interest in religion
and religions. And I have a part-time job at a day care center, which keeps me in touch with little
folks. So that's quite a bit about myself, I think, for a start.
Where were you born?
I was born in Des Moines.
[INAUDIBLE]
But I grew up in Detroit.
I'm [INAUDIBLE]. I'm 152 years old.
Let us guess.
My husband of 30 years is a chemical engineer. And we have four children, a son, 25, and girls
ages 23, 20, and 17. We're praying for strength to get her to 18. We live 15 miles from here, both
of us having come from New York state. My interests are religion, in the sense of how the
peoples of the world go about searching for god, psychology, holistic health, particularly the
connection between man's mental and physical health and his religious beliefs, reading and
writing.
4
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
I was trying to think of some kind of tribute to make to Dr. Thurman.
[INAUDIBLE]
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
Oh, I have something good. I found him 16 years ago in a book. And it would be very difficult to
explain what a good teacher and friend he has been all these years. And to me, he answers the
question which I had always had. Does God create man in his own image? And I was never sure.
And I met Howard Thurman. And I know he does. [INAUDIBLE]
Thank you. Coming here tonight is my 59th birthday present. And when I was 34 and a very
troubled young woman thinking, is this really all there is to life. I had a beautiful home, a
husband, and two children. But there was some little voice within me saying, is this all? Is this
all? I this all there is to it?
I had a first real breakthrough religious experience-- I had never belonged to a church-- in a CFO
camp. I won't go into that. But someone I met there-- well, I have to say first, my husband was
very disturbed by this experience that I've had. He was not there. He was not present.
And trying to figure out what was happening to me, he said, where are you now? Where are you
now? And I listened within myself, and the words that came was, I think I'm growing in love.
But I don't really know what that means. And the following Sunday, a young woman came to my
door. We'd been at the same CFO camp. And she said, put on your hat. We were at the breakfast
table. I'm taking you someplace.
No nos. I'm just taking you someplace, and you're to come. I know this is for you. And she took
me to Fellowship Church. And when I picked up the program for the day, the sermon with Dr.
Thurman was Growing in Love.
And when you were through speaking, I didn't think I was going to be able to leave the seat. I
felt like a piece of limp spaghetti. And I can't tell you what he said. I only know that he threw
open those doors you were saying were closed in time. And I knew that someone else knew and
that I was on the right journey. And that has been my journey and continues to be my journey.
[INAUDIBLE]
Presently, I was married for 30 years and divorced. And I'm in an entirely new life. I'm now
married to Del Anderson, who is the president of the overseas branch of CFO. Well, we have 64
camps around the world. And from the little housewife, mother, the acorn, the oak tree is
beginning to sprout. And I find that my world has become very large and that love needed to
grow to start encompassing that larger life. And so the larger world is growing me and I am
finding that oneness many, many places.
[INAUDIBLE]
I'm Kenny Wood. And I'm a second-year theology student at San Francisco Seminary in San
Anselmo. I was born in San Antonio, Texas and hadn't left Texas until this year, which was a
real hard move for my family, who is my wife, Sharon, and Tiffany, our little girl who's three.
5
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
I didn't know exactly why we were coming out here, except that there was a man at the seminary
who was a hero of mine named Browne Barr. I wanted to be a preacher. And a friendship began
between Dr. Barr and myself. And so we came. We packed up and came.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
I've worked with teenagers, junior high and high school, young people, in a Baptist Church in
Dallas for 10 years. And in our tradition, at least where I'd grown up, the emphasis has always
been on doing enough. And I didn't really have a sense that there was any more than that, that I
knew of.
And I see now from the experiences I've had since we've been here, that this is one of the reasons
that I'm here and that my family and I are here, to make a search inside that has surprised me.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I've always been [INAUDIBLE] but I haven't always been aware of it. But a good portion
of my life, I have been. And I experienced-- I mean, I've had some experience with reality, with
God. I haven't always been able to share my inner self as my wife, Lucille, can and does.
Incidentally, coming over, she was psyched up because she was looking forward to this so much.
And I said, gee, I won't even have to take to buy a cocktail after.
[LAUGHTER]
But this-- I just hit the jackpot. And then I found a birthday present that was so meaningful to
her. And I'm very grateful for that.
Yes. Thank you.
Because she's deserving of it.
Yes.
Whatever the best is that I can give to her.
I was born here in California right nearby. And that makes me unique, because [INAUDIBLE].
That's right. That's right.
[INAUDIBLE] As a boy, I was very poor, struggled, worked hard. And then through the grace of
God-- and it really was the grace of God. It couldn't have been otherwise. I was able to-- I was in
business. Had a dry-cleaning business. nothing very romantic about cleaning dirty clothing.
But when I was 43, I did retire from the economic [INAUDIBLE]. And have been able to do
many things that would have been impossible otherwise. And I've had-- God's blessed me with
tremendous [INAUDIBLE] high consciousness. And part of retirement going along, joyous and
skipping, and jumping and sometimes kind of kicking and screaming. But I've come along. And I
guess God's seen to that.
6
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
[INAUDIBLE]
I'm Ruth [INAUDIBLE] from Carmel, so I'm not very far away. I've been there 16 years. My
roots are on a farm in Kansas. But I came out to California and transplanted 56 years ago. Most
of my work life has been a secretary, a very odd secretary at times.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
I have spent my 75th year looking at everything that I was doing. This was a suggestion of a
friend. And it became quite an interesting experience to look at everything I was doing to figure
whether it was something I really wanted to do, or whether I was doing it just because I got into
it or because somebody else wanted me to do it and I was doing that kind of thing.
That included several activities in the Quaker Church, Methodist Church-- in fact, I grew up
thinking the Methodist Church was really the only church there was-- Doing some things down
there like taping sermons, and I'm on the finance committee and education committee, doing
things like having a mimeograph in my home and doing SPCA benefit schedule, mimeographing
a [INAUDIBLE] for my family. There are still six children living. And I'm the next to the
youngest.
Working in the League of Women Voters, doing some secretarial work for them, getting
involved in a health services study, which really helped us to persuade the National League that
they will be doing a health services study in a couple of years.
I'm now just past my 76th and filling in those things which I have sloughed off and have the free
time now. So what was my office is now wallpapered with paper where I can stick a thumbtack
in and isn't going to make any difference, get all my books in one room instead of six rooms.
And also to figure out what it was that made me in 1933 when I was at a Junior Business Girls
conference in [INAUDIBLE] became very interested in one of the adult faculty or adult leaders.
And since then our paths have kind of crossed pretty often. So I think one thing that's happened
is that all of those things led to right here and right now.
Yeah.
Lois [INAUDIBLE]. I was born in South Dakota on a farm. I love the wide open fields. I seem to
have a sense of god and the spirit within me. I've been on that journey ever since. It's led me into
openings of myself.
I'm married, have a husband, daughter, and son, five grandchildren. I am a secretary to the pastor
[INAUDIBLE] Paradise Methodist Church. I have found that as I am open to the spirit, things
come. So I've been able to write, thanks to God. I love to read.
I think the most joy I've had is being an enabler for people who have wanted to learn from
Howard. And we have a roundtable in our home twice a month, in which we gather around a
table to share, to celebrate life. We give them hot soup, crusty bread and fruit, listen to one of Dr.
Thurmond's tapes, and then discuss it. People find they are moved, the spirit moves within them,
and things were happening because of you. And things have certainly happened with me because
of you.
7
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
I'm Roger Eaton. I work in LA. I've come up to this symposium-- I'm not sure what to say.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Don't think. [INAUDIBLE] Don't think, just say it.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
Well, what I was thinking, actually, was that you talk about being people-- people were locked
in. Well, I don't feel locked in. I feel like I'm-- this is just something that struck me. And if you
press me on it, I won't be able to back it up.
Of course not.
I feel like I'm in a drafty hall. I don't feel looked in at all. On the other hand, it doesn't all quite fit
together. So honestly, I worked for Princess Cruises. That's the Love Boat. I work as a computer
operator there. And I guess I'm here because I think Dr. Thurman understands a lot of things. I'm
really interested to try and make sense of what's going on. And I'm hoping maybe I'll learn to.
That's it.
I'm trying to think of what to say, and everything all flows together. I'm Sarah [INAUDIBLE].
I'm from Minneapolis. I've lived in Minnesota all my life. I was born, like some of the rest of us,
on a farm. And I'm the oldest of three daughters.
I've lived in the Cities in Minneapolis for about 30 years. I'm a teacher. A week ago, my teaching
life turned upside down as I listened to the tape that you asked us to listen to, so much of it fit in
to so many things that are going on for me today and through this week that it has just been so
different that it is special to be here because of what we're talking about and sharing, also to get
away from all of the-- not chaos, because what happened involved my taking a stand and
following it through.
I first met Dr. Thurman in 1966. And I heard him at a church that he was speaking in in
Minneapolis. And after the service, you go up and shake the person's hand and be
[INAUDIBLE]. And when he does it, a sense of presence is there to give you the feel or at least
to give me the feel that he's someone you've known all your life. It's a very special gift. I don't
think I've ever met anybody that has-- where I've felt that since, besides Dr. Thurman.
The things that I do in living my life and trying to blend the faith that I have with the things that I
do so that-- well, and as in what he read tonight, [INAUDIBLE]. What is the name of the tape,
the book?
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
The Creative Encounter. And all of life, everything that we do, becomes part of the reflection of
what we believe. And I teach in the inner city, I guess you call it, some fantastic kids. And my
life has been very enriched by the experiences that I've been able to share with them and that
they have shared with me. I've learned a lot about things that I didn't know that even existed to
learn about, because of the experiences that I've had with children who I was never in contact
with as a child and in my growing years. And that's been very special. It's special to be here.
8
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
[INAUDIBLE] do you have anything to say before we-[INAUDIBLE]
Oh, no. I moved out of that because I can--
That's a good phrase.
[LAUGHTER]
Gee, whiz. Yeah, that's good.
[INAUDIBLE] Is there an interesting person [INAUDIBLE].
[INAUDIBLE]
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
I think he wants me to say how very pleased we are to have you here. [INAUDIBLE] Join the
procession of those [INAUDIBLE].
I am. I am writing [INAUDIBLE]. And I work with the tapes. [INAUDIBLE] These beautiful
quarters were made available to us in 1974, in July of 1974. A couple of years before that, I had
recently moved to San Francisco and had made contact with Dr. Thurmond again. I had met him
years before when I was on the East Cost.
He asked me one day if I would be interested in looking at some tapes, some old tapes that he
had, to see if they were worth anything. And we went out in the garage together. And there were
some boxes [INAUDIBLE] and neatly packed, just like they had been shipped from one part of
the country to the other.
And then there were other boxes where half the tapes were strung out, and this and that. We
decided that the thing for us to do was to begin the newest tapes and kind of work backwards.
And then at any place, we just stopped, we'd have the best-- what would look like the best
material.
Well, I'm still here. And this was in '72. And there wasn't a scrap of that. I don't believe there was
a scrap of tape that I was going to [INAUDIBLE] throw away. So it's been a very rich experience
for me. And I am very, very pleased to be here to share with you what will be our experience
together this weekend.
She is from New Mexico. [INAUDIBLE]
New Mexico. Cattle rancher's daughter. I grew up in a cattle ranch [INAUDIBLE].
I think it's important to say about Joyce that without the work that she's been doing, we simply
would have no records of this. Because I don't write stuff to talk. I don't write sermons. I don't
write anything. So that the only records I have of what has come through me became available
only after the plastic tape recorder was invented.
9
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
For instance, for 15 years, I worked at Howard University as dean of the chapel. And there isn't a
scrap of anything that was said during those 15 years that's available anywhere, because they
didn't have tape recorders. And so that one part of my life in this dimension began when
somebody down the peninsula came up with this Ampex-- I think it's Ampex--
10
�
AudioWithTranscription
Audio that is shown through the 3Play Media embedded interactive transcript
Audio with Transcription
<iframe width="100%" height="820" frameborder="0" src="/files/players/394-358_A.html" ></iframe>
Time Period
The decade in which the recording was produced.
1980s
Original Title
Title as transcribed from tape cassette
Conversations with Howard Thurman (parts 1 and 2) (80-9/19-20-21), 1980 Sep 19-21
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
394-358_A
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Thurman, Howard
Title
A name given to the resource
Conversations with Howard Thurman, September 1980, Parts 1 and 2, Side A
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/rp8k9">MSS 394</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://pitts.emory.edu/">Pitts Theology Library, Emory University</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1980-09-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/"><img style="border-width:0;" src="https://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-nc/4.0/80x15.png" alt="80x15.png" /></a><br />This work is licensed under a <a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License</a>. 2019.
Description
An account of the resource
This recording is a part of a wider series of conversations from September to October of 1980 where Howard Thurman met with a variety of young men and women who were discerning their calling to ministry. Thurman poses the intent of this group as an opportunity to "open up for one's self the moving, vital, creative push of God, while God is still disguised in the movement of God's self." Thurman's introductory remarks in this recording mention the tension that rests between isolation and solitude, noting that the "spiritual root" of breaking out of isolation is the "great built-in desire of being understood." These preliminary remarks set the foundation for the group of students who were sharing who they were, where they were from, and what their story was, to Howard and Sue Bailey Thurman.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Description by Dustin Mailman
aliveness
Anglican Church
being seen
Browne Barr
calling
choice
commitment
community
creative encounter
creativity
ecology
experience
Fellowship Church
Howard University
identity
imago dei
inner self
integrity of life
Isolation
Kansas
knowing
League of Women Voters
love
Love Boat
Minneapolis
New Mexico
Oak Tree
Olive Schreiner
oneness
order
passkey
religious experience
room with no doors
San Francisco Seminary
scent on one's trail
self-actualization
South Africa
South Dakota
Sue Bailey Thurman
teaching
vitality
Yale Divinity School
-
http://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/pittsthurman/original/3a3eded04b27b947621db69ab9cd176d.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI4CD764Y635IGLNA&Expires=1711674600&Signature=h43eIYzS2pRGjxWEgg67TJm3M44%3D
a307fb55dffb9ae4c76084006635cd28
PDF Text
Text
Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
394-098_B.mp3
--of a certain power that he had, that in little ways of relatedness, the vision was always breaking
trough. We will call it an insight that was a derivative from this experience.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
And he seemed [INAUDIBLE] something else that, in the moment of vision, one of the things
that happens is the man becomes aware of his gifts, of his particular, peculiar gifts. And one of
the gifts of which Jesus became aware was the gift of healing. And I'd like to pause now to
comment a little about this.
I think that there is a gift of healing, just as any other gift. I think a man who studies medicine
becomes a doctor. And who has the gift becomes an extraordinary person. But he can be a doctor
without the gift of healing. And he does something. But there's a magic that the git of healing has
that addresses, stimulates, calls forth a quality in the sick person of which the sick person was
not aware until it was called for by this healer.
Now, I realize that there are all kinds of focusing that turn up at the moment I mentioned this.
About 10 years ago, Margaret [INAUDIBLE] wrote a book about a woman who lived in
Minneapolis, Mrs. Somebody, who was a healer. And I live on the edge of curiosity all the time.
And I'm always sniffing things that seem to be out of my life that will throw light on my life.
After reading her biography and I found that she'd lived down in Minneapolis-- I was going there
for a weekend. And I wrote her ahead of time asking if she could give me a half hour on a
Saturday evening. I wanted to visit.
So when I got to the hotel, there was a note from her saying that the appointment was at 7:30 that
evening. And I went out to her apartment. I was met at the door by her sister, who was dressed in
a nurse's white [INAUDIBLE]. She took me into a small room, which apparently was a treatment
room.
There was [INAUDIBLE]. There was a table. And on the table was an old bible. On the wall
above the table was a print of Hofman's Head of Christ. To the left against the wall was an oldfashioned doctor's treatment-- what do you call it? Well, a table. That's the word. And then a
bright kind of [INAUDIBLE] and then a little stool.
And I was told to be seated at a chair. And presently, Mrs. Rhodes-- that's her name. Mrs.
Rhodes came in. And when she a face of [INAUDIBLE] that she had a goya that hung way down
her dress. She was a healer.
And I said to myself, even under the most overwhelming kind of insistent commitment and
passion diluted, oh, you are one of the most [? brazen ?] human beings I've ever seen.
[INAUDIBLE] healing people. So we introduced ourselves. And we began to talk.
And I said, you know, I have never met a live healer before. I said, that's why I'm here. I'm
curious. Tell me a little bit about you.
1
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
And she said, I'm a simple farmwoman. I think she said maybe in second or third grade-- her age
at that time was probably seven or eight-- she had been a healer maybe two or three years. And I
said, tell me what happened? How did you--
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
And she said that one morning, she felt a hand on her shoulder. But there wasn't anybody there.
Nothing. And she was told that from that time on, until such time as there was a change, her life
was under the direct direction or control of a spiritual person [INAUDIBLE].
Well, I settled back into my chair. I said, well, how does it work? She says, when someone
comes to see me, they see him. "He" refers to this person. He tells me what to say. He tells me
what the disease is, where it is located, where to place my hand, and at the same time, he tells me
whether or not healing can come through me to heal the disease.
And I obey. So then some people could come, as soon as I've touched them, I'm told that no
creative energy can flow through me to touch [INAUDIBLE]. And then he won't come back.
Other times, yes.
When I got through that with my mind, Then she said, last night, a very extraordinary happened.
She said, [INAUDIBLE]. And I was shaken. And I was told to get up and go to my desk, take
my pencil and paper, and write. And I was told that I was to write a symposium on the soul. And
I said, you will have to spell "symposium" because I've never heard of the word.
And I was told that my job was to write, and not to ask. So I wrote. I wrote 10 pages. And I
looked at my watch. And my half hour was up. And knowing how I wish people who came and
talked to me would observe the time, I said, my half hour is up. And I don't want to stay a minute
longer, because this is all I asked for. And then she said, oh, stay another half hour.
So I settled back in. And we talked more about this strange energy that flowed through her, that
she could not control, but that came at a moment in her life that she was nothing but powerful.
And thus, before the half hour was up, she said, may we pray. Would you be embarrassed? I
said, oh, no. I a prayer kind of [INAUDIBLE]. So there was a silent prayer where she said-- I
don't remember anything relevant. The words aren't [INAUDIBLE]. And I realized that she had
stopped talking.
She had stopped verbalizing for some time. And when I opened my eyes, her eyes were riveted
on my hands. And she said, when I looked at your hands, all the insides of your hands are worn.
But he tells me to tell you to pay no attention to that, but to keep your hands holding firmly the
thing that they're holding. Now, I don't know what that means. Does it make any sense to you,
she said tome. I said, well, I don't know. I'll have to put it in my hopper and see what comes out
of it.
As I was leaving, I said, I'm going back to Boston tomorrow afternoon. But do you have the
things that you wrote the other night? I would like to read them. Let me keep them overnight.
And I'll return them by messenger or bring them to you by 10 o'clock in the morning.
2
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
Now, I digress to tell you this. Because we live surrounded by the mysteries of life.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
She let me have them. My kind of strength would not let me copy them for myself. Since that
time, I think I regret that I didn't. But when I read it-- this still seems amazing to me-- here was a
detailed discussion of the platonic theory of the soul, which we'll be talking about when we get
to [INAUDIBLE]. Just a detailed, careful statement of the platonic doctrine of the origin of the
soul.
And now and then, there comes a moment in a man's life, or a person's life-- as was in the-- we
talked about the life of Jesus-- when the primary private wall, shell, skin-- whatever the word is-that marks the individual life, part from the whole, is transcended, is pulled, is wrenched, and
there flows into the light something that the individual is aware of as having always been there,
and then the wall rises again, and your private individual life becomes yours, but never the same,
quite never [INAUDIBLE].
And how it manifests itself subsequently depends upon how the person defines his location. So
that we see in the life of Jesus stripped of all of the theology, and the Christology, and all of that,
what we see in the light of Jesus is-- the thing that happens when the implications of the vision,
the experience of illumination casts shafts of light on the path that the individual will follow for
the rest of his days.
And therefore, there is a very striking innate relationship between the inner experience, the
energy, and the most radical kinds of change in social order. And the mystic experience, instead
of its being life denied, does in that way become life affirmed. And the rhythmic beat maintains
itself in what a man like Hawking called the principle of automation. [INAUDIBLE].
"And understood what it is that we are trying to work out. He was very old. And from the secret
swaying of planets to the secret decencies in human hearts, he understood. I used to watch him
watering his lawn, and scattering the food for the woodpecker, sweeping the crossing before his
house.
It was not that there was light about him visible to the eye as in the old paintings, rather an
influence tamed from you him in little breaths. When we were with him, we became other. He
saw us all as if we were that which we dreamed ourselves. He saw the town already clothed for
its tomorrow. He saw the world beating like a heart. Beating like a heart.
How may I too know, I wanted to cry to him. Instead, I only said, and how is it with you today.
But he answered both questions by the look in his eyes, for he had come to quietness. He had
come to the place where sun and moon meet, and where the spaces of the heavens opened their
doors.
He was understanding, and love, and the silence. He was the voice of leaves as he fed the
woodpecker." And then this.
"When my own life feels small and I am oppressed with it, I like to crush together and see, in an
instant, a multitude of disconnected, unliked phases of human life. A medieval monk with his
string of beads pacing the quiet orchard, and looking up from the grass at his feet to the heavy
fruit trees.
3
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
Little Malay boys play naked on the shining sea beach. A Hindu philosopher, alone under his
banyon tree, thinking, thinking, thinking, so that in the thought of God he may lose himself. A
troupe of [INAUDIBLE] dressed in white with crowns of vine leaves dancing along the Roman
streets.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
An Epicurean discussing at a Roman bath to a [INAUDIBLE] of his disciples on the nature of
happiness. A martyr on the night of his death looking through the narrow window to the sky and
feeling that already, he has the wings that shall bear him up. A [INAUDIBLE] witch doctor
seeking for herbs by moonlight, while from the huts on the hillside come the sound of dogs
barking, and the voices of women and children.
A mother giving bread and milk to her children in little wooden basins, and singing the evening
song. I like to see it all. I feel it run through me, that life belongs to me. It makes my little life
larger. It breaks down the narrow walls that shut me in."
To capitulate for a minute and start moving along, you will remember that the great primal
discovery, disclosure that Jesus made in the climactic experience of the baptism was a radical
disclosure of who he was.
And you'll remember the imagery, the symbolism that he used for the heavens up there. And the
spirit of God descended upon him like a dove. Symbolism. And he heard the voice say to him,
"you are My son, My beloved. This day, have I begotten thee. Are in thee am I well pleased."
Having this experience of heightened and acute awareness of himself, of his essence, his
substance, his core, having been penetrated at what may be called in psychological terms the
nerve center of his concept-- that this experience created a radical demand upon his life.
And the question that he had to answer now as a derivative from the vision-- it was, what is the
bearing of this disclosure on my life, my journey, my function, my work, my mission. And in
order to separate settle the thing, shake it down, so that he could derive from the experience what
may be called, for lack of a better term, a working paper for his life.
A working paper that was a derivative from this experience of illumination. And the first step
taken in the carrying out of this sense of trying to discover how this awareness of himself as an
essential part of God, of the eternal-- what difference does that make in how I relate to the other
kinds of identity by which I had found my meaning? And this is very important.
Now, I've skipped the wilderness and moved to the [INAUDIBLE] for that's the journey that I
want to finish if indeed I can this afternoon. Because [INAUDIBLE] is blowing down my neck.
And I want to get rid of him. The first identity which Jesus had to heal was the identity of
belonging. And this, of course, is your first identity [INAUDIBLE]-- mine, anyway. What
bearing does the vision have on the particular meanings of mine own sources identity?
Can I hold clear and distinctly this new awareness of myself in relation to the eternal, and at the
same time, work out some sort of construct with reference to the identity belongings by which I
have defined myself by? And with him, it was very tricky, because his identity of belonging was
Jewish. He was a Jew. A Jew.
4
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
[INAUDIBLE]. How can I work out this awareness that has come to me, my self awareness
which I've discovered to be rooted and grounded in God so intimately that I am conscious of the
fact that I am his immediate offspring? What does that do with the identity by which I have
found my significant [INAUDIBLE]?
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
For instance, when as a young man and Judas of Galilee was going around the community trying
to get young Jewish men to join him in insurrection against Rome, why didn't Jesus join?
It is reasonable that he weren't in the rebuilding of the city Sepphoris, which was destroyed as a
hostile city by Rome because of his insurrection-- that young Jewish men, who were his
contemporaries, who were part of his life and with he'd participated. But he didn't go.
How could he continue living the life of a Jew in Palestine without locating his identity in his
Jewishness?
This meant at once, for instance, are the enemies of the Jewish community, with which I have
my identity-- are the enemies of the Jewish community my enemies? So then much of what we
find him doing with reference to the attitude towards enemies-- which has become a part of the
lip service doctrine of the youth in our religion-- is located in this critical problem.
How must I deal with the enemies of the Jewish community that I remain a Jew who has had this
moment that gives to him an awareness that transcends the group [INAUDIBLE]? And it's
interesting what he does.
For instance, the enemies in the Jewish community were three. One, the regular man that
everybody has-- people that you don't like, sometimes for good and sufficient reasons,
sometimes [INAUDIBLE]. But whatever your private reason-- And he says about Jesus that-[INAUDIBLE].
[INAUDIBLE]? I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
[INAUDIBLE].
Yeah?
I didn't hear what you said.
Oh. Well, I don't know what I said. But I'll start. The private enemy that everybody has-- there's
nothing unique about that, people who, for one reason or another, there's a ruptured relationship.
But he begins there. And what did he say?
That if I discover, on my way to affirm, my awareness absolves-- and the language he uses is
symbolic-- "I'm taking my gift to the [INAUDIBLE]." And then I remember that there is a
ruptured relationship between me and someone else, the person [INAUDIBLE]. Then at the
point of my remembrance, I pick it up. I go back and I find the person [INAUDIBLE] the other
day.
5
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
Now, the second category was the member of the Jewish community who had rented his mind
and his know-how to the Roman government, the tax collector. For the tax collector would say to
the Romans that, I know Jewish psychology. And I can get the tribute in a way that a gentile or a
Roman can't do.
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
I will rent my know-how, my idiom. You can borrow it for a price. And so that the tax collector
was despised because he was a great betrayer. Now, how does Jesus, aware now of himself, who
also is a Jew-- how does he deal with this? Because these two things must not be in permanent
conflict.
He uses a very quaint way. He says that Matthew, or whoever [INAUDIBLE], is a son of
Abraham. And he tested it by inviting himself to be a guest in the tax collector's house.
And he soon realizes-- he said something of very great psychological significance in terms of
what he was working out in the light of his vision-- this is what I'm talking about all the time-that the ultimate intimacy between human beings is to break bread together. [INAUDIBLE].
And as systems and social systems in the world, where there is a desert and a gulf between
peoples, we will do everything together-- play together, sleep together, work together,
[INAUDIBLE]. Because when-- and why-- Oh, I'm getting far too [INAUDIBLE], and then I'll
come back.
Because when you eat, when you stop to eat, a lot of things that have been trying to catch up
with you all day and you haven't had a chance to pay any attention to-- you've been too busy-when you sit down to eat, then they come around.
And that's why I have never been [? inclusive ?] of where I am now. I've never happened on any
college or university campus in my life where people who eat in dining rooms or what have you
were satisfied with the food-- not because the food's bad, but because it is the one time that all
the things that have been bugging you all day and you haven't had a chance to pay any attention
to-- when you sit down, and you say, well, here you are now, and they come, and [INAUDIBLE]
regret and-[LAUGHTER]
I made you sandwiches, and huh? And so Jesus-- now, this is the clue. If I eat with the tax
collector-- I can do it-- and then the Roman who was the great enemy-- and I just have to take a
moment to throw it into context for you.
The Jewish community at the time that Jesus lived in Palestine had lost its political freedom. It
was a vassal of Rome. They were permitted-- "they" being the Jewish people-- were permitted to
have their own private religion, but they did not have-- now, the Jewish state-- they did not have
power of veto and certification over the life of a citizen.
That's why, for instance, when Jesus was tried and condemned, the Jewish community could not
put him to death. The Romans had to do that. Because the autonomy of a state at last seems to
rest on whether or not it has power of life and death over its citizens.
6
�Pitts Theology Library
The Howard Thurman Digital Archive
Transcription
thurman.pitts.emory.edu
How can I handle this without destroying the integrity of this awareness that came
[INAUDIBLE]?
Pitts Theology Library
Emory University
And you know what, how did he do it? He rejected one by one--
7
�
AudioWithTranscription
Audio that is shown through the 3Play Media embedded interactive transcript
Audio with Transcription
<iframe width="100%" height="820" frameborder="0" src="/files/players/394-098_B.html" ></iframe>
Location
The location of the interview, speech, lecture, or sermon
University of Redlands, Redlands, California
Internal Notes
Notes for project team
Edits: brazen human; Bacchanalians; never been inclusive - GL 5/20/19
Time Period
The decade in which the recording was produced.
1970s
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
394-098_B
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Thurman, Howard
Title
A name given to the resource
On Mysticism, Part 12 (University of Redlands Course), 1973
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/rp8k9">MSS 394</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
<a href="http://pitts.emory.edu/">Pitts Theology Library, Emory University</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/"><img style="border-width:0;" src="https://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-nc/4.0/80x15.png" alt="80x15.png" /></a><br />This work is licensed under a <a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License</a>. 2019.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
GEOMETRYCOLLECTION(POINT(-13042600.321303 4037296.9410534))
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1973-02
Description
An account of the resource
This recording is the eighth lecture in our collection of ten that Howard Thurman gave at the University of Redlands in 1973 on the topic of mysticism. Thurman indicates that this lecture functions as a means to point the listener towards practical approaches to mysticism through lenses of psychology, philosophy, and religious experience. In this recording, Thurman reflects upon the life of Jesus, and an encounter he had with the author Margaret Rhodes, in order to make sense of what it means to heal. Here, Thurman indicates that the primary function of healing rests in the healing of one's "identity of belonging." In other words, Thurman is arguing that to heal, and be healed, is to be fully integrated into a life of community.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Description by Dustin Mailman
baptism
calling
christology
contemplation
creative energy
gifts
goya
Head of Christ
healer
healing
Henrich Hofmann
historical Jesus
imago dei
inner experience
interelatedness
Jesus
magic
Margaret Rhodes
Minneapolis
mystic experience
Palestine
Platonic doctrine
power
principle of automation
self-awareness
social change
Stephen Hawking
symbolism
symposium of the soul
wilderness
woodpecker
working paper